# I am re-wiring my house. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 16, 2017, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-re-wiring-my-house/777334 "2017-01-16T20:28:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Common\_Tater](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/common_tater/32/13846_2.png) [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-re-wiring-my-house/777334/21 "2017-01-17T05:40:01Z")
Arthel “Doc” Watson, the famous blind bluegrass flatpicker, was said to have rewired his home, and it passed code. So it can’t be too bad, right? ---
**Author:** ![48Willys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/db5fbb/32.png) [@48Willys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/48Willys)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-re-wiring-my-house/777334/22 "2017-01-17T08:04:04Z")
I am NOT an electrician. Take my advice with that in mind. Please replace the main circuit breaker box first. There are many reasons to do this. 1. If you install new wires into the old breaker box, you will want to leave some extra length on each wire to be sure that it will not be too short for the new breaker box when you do get around to replacing it. If the wires are too short, you will get to pull in new wires. Not fun. The extra wire will fill up the breaker box fast. This is a major PITA! AMHIK! Been there done that. 2. Unless the old breaker box is 150 Amp service or over, it is too small already & probably is a fire hazard right now. Think of the main service breaker box as a foundation for your electrical system. You would not repair a wall if the foundation below it was not strong enough. You would fix the foundation first. 3. You have one spare circuit, IIRC, Code is at least two. YMMV. Note: code varies by State, Providence, County, & City. Check your local code as well as the National one. The local code is usually much more restrictive. 4. Those 15 amp breakers that you are going to use to replace all of the 20 amp ones may fit the old breaker box, but not fit the new breaker box that you install “later”. That would cause you to have to buy more new breakers to fit the new box. This can get expensive fast. 5. The new breaker box will give you more room to work with. That is very handy, especially for a novice. 6. This is also the time to think about “Whole House” surge protection as well as GFI protection. Think of it, one surge protector for the entire house, as well as one GFI unit. It can be less expensive depending on how many GFI circuits that you are planning on. Look into it. I would get at least 200 amp service. No less. Do not fall for the false economy of buying a breaker box with “just enough” service, it never is. Unless wall space is at a major premium, get the largest, (physically), box that you can. Again, more room. Keep in mind that “code” is the minimum. It may not be what is best. Using 12 AWG wiring through out is what I would do as well. I almost always use the next wire size up from what code calls for. It is more expensive & the larger wires can be a PITA to install, but my families lives are at stake here. With a little planning, you can replace the main breaker box in about two hours. I would gather all of the materials & start on it early Saturday morning. However, you may want to hire this done as it does involve disconnecting the meter from the breaker box & many utilities will only do that if a licensed electrician is present. I have done it “live” but it is very dangerous. **Do not try this**. IHTH, & that I did not scare you away from your plan to DIY. Hang in there, 48. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-re-wiring-my-house/777334/23 "2017-01-17T16:30:44Z")
\*\*I am re-wiring my house. \*\* [This](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YurxSVKAUwk) might help. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Vorlon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@The\_Vorlon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Vorlon)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-re-wiring-my-house/777334/24 "2017-01-17T16:54:05Z")
Other advise–when we replaced the 15 amp service, the knob and tube got replaced with 12 AWG romex. Outlet every six feet. Outlets on the windows of the house were split, with one half running on a timer. (Christmas lights). Overhead lights were on a separate circuit, because who likes to troubleshoot in the dark? The kitchen had a four gang outlet every 4 feet on the counters, with separate circuits for the fridge, and later we added one for the microwave when they became an item. Many outlets and circuits were roughed in for the basement work areas. Heck, Dad even fished single plugs into the window frames by the fireplace mantle for Moms Christmas village, on the timer, of course. Of course it helped that Dad was an Electrician, but at the same time we were replacing the plumbing, heating, and moving the sewer pipes below the cellar floor. Look on the bright side–I’m sure the roof will be on the short list to get replaced! ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-re-wiring-my-house/777334/25 "2017-01-17T16:54:43Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > I buy the outlets that have clamps on the side rather than the back stabs. Easy to use, with positive connections. Like those as well. More silver linings, this is also a chance to replace all of the bargain-bin switches and plates with something more attractive. > [@48Willys](#): > > 1. You have one spare circuit, IIRC, Code is at least two. YMMV. Note: code varies by State, Providence, County, & City. Check your local code as well as the National one. The local code is usually much more restrictive. That’s something I haven’t run across before…can’t imagine what the purpose of that would be? > [@48Willys](#): > > I would get at least 200 amp service. No less. Do not fall for the false economy of buying a breaker box with “just enough” service, it never is. Unless wall space is at a major premium, get the largest, (physically), box that you can. Again, more room. > [@48Willys](#): > > 1. Unless the old breaker box is 150 Amp service or over, it is too small already & probably is a fire hazard right now. I was mulling pretty hard over replacing the panel because it is clearly old. Plus, even a modest upgrade will grab me another 10 circuits to work with for breathing room during this process. I do not think I’ll upgrade to 200A service, though. I simply don’t think I need it. Again, we’re talking about a 1-level, 3 bedroomhouse. Less than 1,500 sq. ft. Gas heat and water heater helps. Maaybe if I ever remodel the kitchen and put more appliances in, or if I do radiant heat in a bathroom I’d look at the load but I think right now it’s excessive work and expense. > [@48Willys](#): > > With a little planning, you can replace the main breaker box in about two hours. I would gather all of the materials & start on it early Saturday morning. However, you may want to hire this done as it does involve disconnecting the meter from the breaker box & many utilities will only do that if a licensed electrician is present. I have done it “live” but it is very dangerous. **Do not try this**. Yikes! I have watched that being done (guy who was replacing his panel got tired of waiting on P&L), and it made me nervous enough standing 10 feet away that I’d never try it myself. > [@Clothahump](#): > > \*\*I am re-wiring my house. > > \*\* > > [This](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YurxSVKAUwk) might help. 😃 Due to my little brother insisting on watching Home Improvement more or less all the time, I am physically unable to watch this. ---
**Author:** ![Me\_Billy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e480ec/32.png) [@Me\_Billy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Me_Billy)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-re-wiring-my-house/777334/26 "2017-01-17T17:05:58Z")
It is ILLEGAL to not get a permit and inspection when doing major electrical work… With this said, it sounds like the previous owner did not do this! And your inspector was negligent to not inform you of the serious issue of 20 amp breakers on 14 gauge wire! A BIG no no! I would advise you to go ask an attorney if you can sue your inspector and/or previous owner to have this fixed. You should have been given “disclosure” paperwork when purchasing the property. If the previous owner did not disclose that non-code electrical work was done, then you probably have a good case! Also an electrician poking around might find a bunch more dangerous stuff which you might not notice. So get it fixed, but get the previous owner and “inspector” to pay for it. ---
**Author:** ![Emergency911](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/43a26b/32.png) [@Emergency911](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emergency911)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-re-wiring-my-house/777334/27 "2017-01-17T17:28:22Z")
My house was new construction with licensed electricians doing all the work. I learned the hard way that saving a couple of bucks on the cheaper fixtures that the builder recommended didn’t really save me any money. It didn’t take long before outlets started frying or at the very least, wouldn’t even hold the plug in after something was unplugged and plugged in only a few times and other stuff like that. I ended up replacing all of my switches and outlets within a few years of moving in. While some of them weren’t having issues, I just gave up and started replacing everything so I wouldn’t have issues later on. I couldn’t even play an electrician on TV, but am savvy enough to replace outlets and switches. There were times when replacing things that I would run into things that just didn’t look right to me. I called an electrician friend who came over and started looking at things. He told me that some builders will try to cut costs as much as possible, which leads to shoddy work. He found evidence of that in my house and gave me a list of things to look for. Since it sounds like you are starting from scratch, you are on the right track. I know I considered that after opening up a couple of junction boxes and watching my friend cringe at what he saw. I managed to not have to run all new wires and got everything up to safety standards. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-re-wiring-my-house/777334/28 "2017-01-17T18:05:03Z")
I made a point to use commercial grade switches and receptacles. They have the side clamps. You can get them at any of the big suppliers. Carlton Bates, Treadway, Grainger. They list three grades in their catalog. Residential, Specification and Commercial. The difference in price is negligible compared to the labor installing them. I wanted my rewire job to last for my lifetime. I’ve replaced two switches since I rewired 25 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-re-wiring-my-house/777334/29 "2017-01-17T18:28:53Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Like those as well. More silver linings, this is also a chance to replace all of the bargain-bin switches and plates with something more attractive. There are all sorts of fancy switches and wallplates you can get now. You can get wooden wall plates, or ones that match the ceramic tile, or painted ones. The problem, of course, is that if you get fancy wall plates everywhere, your budget will explode. If I were you, I’d concentrate on the wall plates at wall switches, since that’s what’s on display the most. And they have outlets with built-in child protection features (although those may be required now), and ones with built-in USB charging ports. ---
**Author:** ![JohnGalt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johngalt/32/184_2.png) [@JohnGalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnGalt)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-re-wiring-my-house/777334/30 "2017-01-17T18:40:06Z")
We bought a 1917 house in a college town for my kids to use while there, with the intention of knocking down a wall separating a very small room (a luggage room?) from the master bedroom. Of course that led to discovering knob-and-tube wiring on the upper level (the lower level had been rewired in the 1970s I’d guess). We had easy attic access, so I decided to rewire the entire upper floor, add ceiling fan supports, lights on both the bottom and top of the stairs, many more outlets, and interconnected smoke alarms. The box was at 100 amps, with no A/C and a gas stove, which was fine with me. I won’t repeat others’ advice, but consider the smoke alarms, add a dimmable light in the bedroom (so one of you can get dressed without waking your spouse), closet lights, switchable outside lights (from an inside switch for Christmas lighting), etc. Since we had plenty of circuits to work with, I went with 14 AWG simply because it’s a lot easier to work with and to cut and bend. Of course those are on 15 amp circuits only. AFCI breakers in bedrooms and living rooms. I ended up with a defective AFCI breaker that would trip by itself once a week and discovered it had been recalled, only after double checking all of my connections - urgh! At the same time I added low-voltage wiring: two drops of RJ-45 and TV coax, in each of the bedrooms, all on home-runs to a base box in the system and carefully marked. Since you’re already drilling and stringing, consider doing this now too. I had pulled a permit and the major thing the inspector checked was that there were no dimmers on outlets, that wires were wrapped clockwise on the screws, that there was enough slack in the wires in the boxes, and that any outside fixtures included openings at the bottom for rain weeping (he asked me if I had read the instructions for the outside light fixture, and seemed surprised and pleased when I said I had and pulled out the instruction sheet for him). I have an electrician friend who gave me some suggestions (and let me borrow his RJ-45 test plugs - yay!). So now every time I see him my first words are “I passed my electrical inspection!”, even after five years have gone by. So you can do it, plan your circuits ahead of time (my favorite part), and think of your future needs. I had fun and hope you do as well. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-re-wiring-my-house/777334/31 "2017-01-17T19:04:33Z")
> [@purplehearingaid](#): > > You need a permit to rewire a house and have to be a license electrician to do this . I hope you know what you’re doing and I wouldn’t be telling too many of your neighbors about this , the city building inspector may find ! > [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Depends on where you live; I do need permits, I do not need to be a licensed electrician. Can I ask a sort of off-topic question? I notice you said where you live you don’t need to have a licensed electrician pull the permit for you. Is that normally the case or is my county just really sticklers? I called the county permit office just to ask about replacing outlets and switches, and was told I needed a licensed electrician to pull the permit, so that seems like it makes it impossible for me to do it myself. Is that the most common experience of people? ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-re-wiring-my-house/777334/32 "2017-01-17T22:09:46Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Can I ask a sort of off-topic question? > > I notice you said where you live you don’t need to have a licensed electrician pull the permit for you. Is that normally the case or is my county just really sticklers? > > I called the county permit office just to ask about replacing outlets and switches, and was told I needed a licensed electrician to pull the permit, so that seems like it makes it impossible for me to do it myself. > > Is that the most common experience of people? Totally up to the locality. ---
**Author:** ![Common\_Tater](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/common_tater/32/13846_2.png) [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-re-wiring-my-house/777334/33 "2017-01-17T22:53:34Z")
As a point of order existing “knob and tube” wiring isn’t illegal or unlawful. If the insulation is OK, and doesn’t have flammables piled on it, there’s nothing really unsafe about it. The scheisse outlets, power strips, electrical cords from you-know-where - and often with a UL sticker - are more dangerous imo. Automatic coffee pot firestarters, CFLs bursting into flames… The “stick the wire in” thoe electrical outlet connections aren’t too good, specifically. It’s not a bad plan to periodically check for tightness of conventional outlets, the screws will tend to loosen as well. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-re-wiring-my-house/777334/34 "2017-01-17T22:54:18Z")
Here’s an idea…could replace my 100A panel with a 200, and use a100A main breaker. That way it would at least be ready for upgraded service in the future. Cost another $50 over a 100A replacement, but that’s not much in the grand scheme. ---
**Author:** ![Renee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/renee/32/287_2.png) [@Renee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-re-wiring-my-house/777334/35 "2017-01-17T23:18:17Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Not ok to use 14 AWG on a 15A for my lighting? I mean, I’m happy to use a 20A breaker and have all my ceiling fixtures in the house on one circuit…not counting the bathrooms (which, silver lining, need exhaust fans badly) I have 9 ceiling fixtures. I don’t have the math in front of me, but they should fit on one… > > Oh, someone mentioned the kitchen…fortunately for me, I don’t have a microwave, dishwasher, or disposal. Soooo that makes it a little easier. > > No, I probably won’t run them for the next owner. I will wire in a stove hood and exhaust though. I’m pretty sure you’re going to be required to have a dedicated 20 amp outlet for the microwave, even if you don’t have one. I believe the NEC requires that. I don’t think you’re required to wire for a DW/disposal. 14 AWG is up to code. It’s going to be difficult enough to pull wires without opening up the walls (I’ll be suprised if you can pull this off, frankly.) 12AWG is significantly thicker and less flexible than 14. It’s not the cost of the wire, it’s the difficulty of the pulling of it. RE, the permit thing. Totally local. We just built a house and the only permit required was for the septic. Our last renovation required a permit to add on a garage, but not to rewire or plumb the house. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-re-wiring-my-house/777334/36 "2017-01-17T23:29:19Z")
> [@Renee](#): > > RE, the permit thing. Totally local. We just built a house and the only permit required was for the septic. Our last renovation required a permit to add on a garage, but not to rewire or plumb the house. I meant to add on my last post something like this. I was a carpenter on a group of duplexes out in the county, in the same situation. Only requirement was wastewater. > [@Renee](#): > > I’m pretty sure you’re going to be required to have a dedicated 20 amp outlet for the microwave, even if you don’t have one. I believe the NEC requires that. I don’t think you’re required to wire for a DW/disposal. I was under the impression that any work I do has to be to code, but I don’t have to bring anything else up…I think this goes on the list of things I ask the city about during the application process. If I have to I have to! ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-re-wiring-my-house/777334/37 "2017-01-17T23:33:35Z")
> [@Renee](#): > > I’m pretty sure you’re going to be required to have a dedicated 20 amp outlet for the microwave, even if you don’t have one. I believe the NEC requires that. I don’t think you’re required to wire for a DW/disposal. I could see requiring a dedicated microwave circuit if you’ve got one of those holes in the cabinet designed to accept a microwave oven. But what if, like my parents, your microwave just sits on the counter and plugs into the nearest outlet? There’s no guarantee that the next homeowner will want to put the microwave in the same spot. ---
**Author:** ![Renee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/renee/32/287_2.png) [@Renee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-re-wiring-my-house/777334/38 "2017-01-18T00:21:40Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I could see requiring a dedicated microwave circuit if you’ve got one of those holes in the cabinet designed to accept a microwave oven. But what if, like my parents, your microwave just sits on the counter and plugs into the nearest outlet? There’s no guarantee that the next homeowner will want to put the microwave in the same spot. I’m going from memory here, but I believe the wording is more like: You have to have at least two 20 amp small appliance circuits in the kitchen. Reasoning that a lot of kitchen appliances pull a lot of power, and a microwave and, say, a toaster oven on at the same time could pop your breaker. This will depend again on your inspector, but a lot of times if you are doing some percentage of re-wiring, they require you to bring the whole house up to code. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-re-wiring-my-house/777334/39 "2017-01-18T00:36:56Z")
It’s only a matter of time before this and “Accidental electrocution” make a kick-ass sequential threads. ---
**Author:** ![48Willys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/db5fbb/32.png) [@48Willys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/48Willys)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-re-wiring-my-house/777334/40 "2017-01-18T06:26:29Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Here’s an idea…could replace my 100A panel with a 200, and use a100A main breaker. That way it would at least be ready for upgraded service in the future. Cost another $50 over a 100A replacement, but that’s not much in the grand scheme. That is an idea. It would give you more room physically & circuit wise while saving you some money. How much does it save anyway? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-re-wiring-my-house/777334.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-re-wiring-my-house/777334.md?page=3)