# I Am Second.com = Creationist Agenda **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 24, 2009, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-second-com-creationist-agenda/487149 "2009-02-24T03:02:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-second-com-creationist-agenda/487149/21 "2009-02-24T15:46:23Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Their mission statement seems to deny this possibility: Meh - as much as I don’t like the cut of their jib, there are plenty of ways to present the gospel without, you know, presenting the gospel. They could very well say “they will know we are christians by our love” is how they do it, and it wouldn’t run afoul of a single federal purse string. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-second-com-creationist-agenda/487149/22 "2009-02-24T16:35:44Z")
There seems to be a bit of confusion, here, (and it may well be mine). I do not think that the “Need Him” and “I Am Second” groups are part of the ECFA in the link provided. The **E** vangelical **C** ouncil For **F** inancial **A** ccountability apears to be an independent organization that vets religious groups that engage in fundraising for ethical behavior. They then present the figures for any participating group on their web site so that people wishing to donate to an organization can see where it gets its money and how it spends it. One of the categories on the page is “Noncash Donations and Gov’t Grants.” That entry appears on the page for every single organization. This gives them a place to record money or cheese handed out to soup kitchens by the Feds as well as the use of cars loaned to groups visiting shut-ins, (if such a thing occurred). There is no indication that the “Need Him/I Am Second” people are actually getting government grants. They might just be getting free TV or radio time from various local stations and/or free plugs from celebrity members that have to be reported as donations. You may now return to your “is too/is not” battle over gods, already in progress. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-second-com-creationist-agenda/487149/23 "2009-02-24T17:22:11Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I do not think that the “Need Him” and “I Am Second” groups are part of the ECFA in the link provided. “Need Him” is a member of EFCA, as indicated by the EFCA badge at this website: [http://www.needhimresources.com/](http://www.needhimresources.com/) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-second-com-creationist-agenda/487149/24 "2009-02-24T18:59:24Z")
“Need Him” is a member of ECFA in the way that most local schools are members of North Central Association rather than the way in which [CitizenLink.com](http://CitizenLink.com) or Adventures in Odessy are members of Focus on the Family. To be a member means only that the member organization opens its books (or some portion of them) to ECFA for limited auditing so that ECFA can tell potential donors the ways in which their monies are collected and spent. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-second-com-creationist-agenda/487149/25 "2009-02-24T19:25:58Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > How do human remains that are older than 6000 years fit into your ‘Adamic humanity’ viewpoint? If your belief is that humans were created ex nihilo 6000 years ago and have evolved since then into what we are now, then you don’t understand evolution and are squarely a creationist. Nothing that you say here squares with the theory of evolution as biology understands it. > > How is it that you call yourself ‘evolutionist’? > > Dawkins would probably agree that the only real way to continue believing in religion in the face of scientific evidence that it is false is to become so hardened and fundamentalist that you can trick yourself into ignoring the facts. > > Also, I’m anti-religion. That means all of them, and it includes yours. I’m sure it does, and I’m also against yours. We can still be friendly about it.😉 As for no evidence of a Designer- _looks around_ I see no evidence that random chance threw all of this together. It looks designed to me. How can you have such a staunch belief in mindless matter in motion? To the extent that I vasillate (sp?) between Old-Earth Creationism & Theistic Evolution, I believe it may have been that God evolved homo sapiens from their animalistic ancestors, and that a certain pair of homo sapeins roughly 6000 years ago were endowed with the “Breath of Lives”/“Image and Likeness of God”, were put to a test regarding their trust in God & failed that test. They went out to have children, who went out to intermarry with the other humans (“the sons of God and daughters of men”), so that all humanity partook of both the Divine Breath and Adamic falleness. OR that Adamic humanity = homo sapiens, and is much older than 6000 years, and we just don’t have a full geneology from Adam to Abraham, especially after Noah’s lineage. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-second-com-creationist-agenda/487149/26 "2009-02-24T19:40:51Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > As for no evidence of a Designer- _looks around_ I see no evidence that random chance threw all of this together. It looks designed to me. How can you have such a staunch belief in mindless matter in motion? _looks around_ - At a casual glance I see no evidence that the earth isn’t flat and that the sun isn’t being pulled through the sky in an arc over it, perhaps by a god in a chariot. Hmm, I also don’t see any evidence that Noah’s flood didn’t happen, either. Perhaps if I looked a little closer… ---
**Author:** ![dehacker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbe5ce/32.png) [@dehacker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dehacker)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-second-com-creationist-agenda/487149/27 "2009-02-24T19:51:52Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > As for no evidence of a Designer- _looks around_ I see no evidence that random chance threw all of this together. It looks designed to me. How can you have such a staunch belief in mindless matter in motion? If you think random chance is an accurate description of the current scientific theories regarding the development of life and the universe, then you are very ignorant of science in general, not to mention biology and cosmology specifically. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-second-com-creationist-agenda/487149/28 "2009-02-24T20:05:14Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > To be a member means only that the member organization opens its books (or some portion of them) to ECFA for limited auditing so that ECFA can tell potential donors the ways in which their monies are collected and spent. Plus, they get to use ECFA’s fancy seal on their websites, don’t forget that! ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-second-com-creationist-agenda/487149/29 "2009-02-24T20:40:37Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > She hinted that evolution should not be taught. (!) Well IMHO evolution should not be taught except as a class on human created myth on for what God told us already, but that’s another issue. > [@](#): > > So, non-believers, how can we legally stop hidden religious agendas online legally? > > Believers, does this offend you? And please state whether or not you think > Creationism is real. When I believed, I would be extremely offended to find out > that someone used my beliefs to fabricate their own agenda. Wouldn’t this make a savior a little peeved? The question of if it offends me is a bit fuzzy because I don’t know what went into it. Actually it does not ‘offend me’ but running it through my test ‘would Jesus have done this’ I would say probably not, and if not it is not of God, but of man. God means what He says, He is very literal, so yes I believe in Creationism (as put forth in scriptures) ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-second-com-creationist-agenda/487149/30 "2009-02-24T22:03:20Z")
Everybody hides agendas to some extent - there’s not much you can do about it except honestly expose their hypocrisy when it becomes apparent, if you think it’s worth the effort - if their hypocrisy is _not_ apparent, how much of a problem is it anyway? ---
**Author:** ![dehacker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbe5ce/32.png) [@dehacker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dehacker)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-second-com-creationist-agenda/487149/31 "2009-02-24T22:19:15Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Well IMHO evolution should not be taught except as a class on human created myth on for what God told us already, but that’s another issue. Well IMHO, your designation of evolution as “myth” is a strong indicator of it being exactly the opposite, given that your worldview is often completely at odds with reality. Evolution is quite correctly taught as scientific fact in science classrooms, as it deservedly should be. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-second-com-creationist-agenda/487149/32 "2009-02-24T22:26:07Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Well IMHO evolution should not be taught except as a class on human created myth on for what God told us already, but that’s another issue. It’s as mythical as the science that makes computers and televisions exist. In fact, it’s as mythical as all science. So, since you are, er, predisposed to thinking that all science is myth, why not teach the ‘myth’ of evolution in Science (aka ‘myth’) class, and keep Creationism out of that ‘myth’ class, and somewhere more appropriate where ‘myths’ are not presented. Like ‘creative writing’ class, say. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-second-com-creationist-agenda/487149/33 "2009-02-24T22:46:15Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > God means what He says, He is very literal, so yes I believe in Creationism (as put forth in scriptures) Oh, and I hope you have never read Deuteronomy 13:6-10. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-second-com-creationist-agenda/487149/34 "2009-02-24T22:51:58Z")
I question your conclusion that the I Am Second campaign has anything to do with creationism. Their web site seems to be simply about getting people who are already Christians to rearrange their priorities. My impression is that I Am Second is just here in North Texas - is that right? A father of a kid in my son’s Boy Scout troop sent this email three days ago to the whole group (I think he was actively involved in getting it started): > [@](#): > > Troop xxx parents— > > Check out [www.iamsecond.com](http://www.iamsecond.com) and let me know what you think. Which video do you like best? > > The videos are of people who tried being first, but still felt hollow inside. As our organization rolled this out, we were surprised at how many people identified with the folks in the videos and wanted to talk about it. > > So I’m sending this out to see if there are parents that would like to get together during the next two or three Scout meetings to talk about “what in the world does I am Second mean?” Many of us are at the church on Scout nights anyway, or dropping our boys off. So it would be a convenient time to meet for 30 or 40 minutes. > > Email me at [xxxx.xxxxxxxx@e3partners.org](mailto:xxxx.xxxxxxxx@e3partners.org) if you are interested. > > Blessings. > > xxxx xxxxxxxx I don’t see anything here having to do with creationism. I was thinking about attending one of these discussion groups if they have any during the Boy Scout meetings that I’d be at anyway, and if they would be OK with having an atheist audit their meeting. But so far it seems pretty straightforward and up front. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-second-com-creationist-agenda/487149/35 "2009-02-25T17:24:05Z")
I simply assume that every christian organization out there is a supporter or creationism or ID. They certainly are in the majority. In that sense, I wouldnt have bothered to call them, I would just anticipate their perspective and acted accordingly, whatever that is ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-second-com-creationist-agenda/487149/36 "2009-02-25T18:05:23Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Well IMHO evolution should not be taught except as a class on human created myth on for what God told us already, but that’s another issue. Sticking your head in the sand to ignore hundreds of years of scientific evidence because it conflicts with the child’s story you’ve randomly chosen to identify with isn’t the sign of a spectacular mind. Scientific truth is more important than the lies that give you comfort. > [@](#): > > God means what He says, He is very literal, so yes I believe in Creationism (as put forth in scriptures) You have to factor in that God was created by ignorant tribal people. Some of their suggestions on cosmology and biology were the sort of thing ignorant sheep-herders might posit about the universe. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-second-com-creationist-agenda/487149/37 "2009-02-26T00:33:32Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > This: > Does not jive with this: > or even this > It sounds to me that you were rather confrontational when you called. > > Besides, I wouldn’t call it a hidden agenda. If the agenda is no where to be found on the website, maybe the simple answer is that it’s **not** an agenda for the website. Possibly confrontational, but remember, not until the argument came on their end. Besides, if I’m atheist, agnostic, a doubter, etc., they claim their mission is to bring Christ to your life. Okay, fine, but why the creationism? ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-second-com-creationist-agenda/487149/38 "2009-02-26T00:44:35Z")
> [@Siege](#): > > Are you interested in hearing from a devout Christian who does accept evolution? Almost all of the Christians I know in real life, including the ones I’ll be eating pancakes with tonight, accept evolution. Some of us have a hard time understanding why someone would say we can only accept evolution or believe in God. > > If you want my exact position, I believe that God created the life as we know it by some means, which, based on currently available knowledge, is likely to have included evolution. If evidence comes up for another method, I don’t have a problem with that. To me, God merely willing the world into being is far too simple and far less awe-inspiring that the idea that He set things in motion in such a way that things would wind up as they are. The physics, the biology, and the chemistry behind current theories are wonderful. To me, it’s like trying to solve a magnificent puzzle. If you want another metaphor, it’s the difference between a store-bought sweater, which just appeared on the shelves, ready to wear, and a hand-knit one, in which every stitch is an act of creation, and, if you will, Divine will. > > As for appreciating a sunset, I do have some knowledge of the physics behind it, and the physical properties of light are fascinating. That basic knowledge of science enhances my wonder, awe, and appreciation of its beauty. > > I’m a programmer and the daughter, sister, and wife of engineers. I am curious about the way things work and the way they’re put together, and for me, learning about how something’s put together usually makes it even more interesting, rather than less. It’s the same with God and science. What I learned about evolution, plate tectonics, and the Big Bang theory as a child and in the years since hasn’t diminished my faith but rather increased the joy and wonder I feel at what a really cool, marvelous world we live in. > > If you really want to annoy these people, you could even tell them I wish I could share my joy in God’s creation with them. 😉 Okay. Good. I won’t debate any view on divinity of yours, and I DO appreciate the co-existence of Evolution and god. As a matter of fact, I agree with you when you say it shouldn’t be a choice BETWEEN god and evolution. Before I went atheist, I attended catholic grammar school. (Relating to another SDMB debate), we were never told to think of them together, but separately. Part of my disappointment with this whole matter is just little lies, it seems. Need Him Ministries uses Jesus as the bait and creationism the hook, line and sinker, leaving no room for any other alternates, like yours with regarding these ideas as separate. Like they are saying, “If you agree, welcome, if you don’t, go away.” If so, do they really give a blessed shit if anyone accepts the holy hippie in their lives, or just gets a donation? Of course… the more in the club, the bigger the possibility of expansion. Eeep. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-second-com-creationist-agenda/487149/39 "2009-02-26T01:09:42Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > I question your conclusion that the I Am Second campaign has anything to do with creationism. Their web site seems to be simply about getting people who are already Christians to rearrange their priorities. > > My impression is that I Am Second is just here in North Texas - is that right? > > A father of a kid in my son’s Boy Scout troop sent this email three days ago to the whole group (I think he was actively involved in getting it started): > > I don’t see anything here having to do with creationism. I was thinking about attending one of these discussion groups if they have any during the Boy Scout meetings that I’d be at anyway, and if they would be OK with having an atheist audit their meeting. But so far it seems pretty straightforward and up front. CurtC, I like what you say, but call it over cautious, paranoid, what have you, but I research the origins of ANY site saying they can help me and my friends. The stories are individual and personal, granted, but the video quality is so superb for a charity site, the background music swells… how many takes did these people do, we’re they paid, etc. Also noticeable are the mentions of Jesus, always after their story turns sad and hopeless. I only viewed a few but none start with “I love Jesus because…” So, who rewrote or edited these videos? And if so, why? Now, I Am Second, and you are absolutely right, does not mention creationism, their parent charity does. Only reason I called them was to measure how important creationism was to them, like, do they want it in school? I have been in email contact with Tom at Need Him Ministries. We’re bucking back and forth, but I am only looking for one answer: If you accept Evolution, can you still accept Jesus according to Need him Ministries, or is that not allowed. (I will post that email commentary later.) BTW, are you atheist or agnostic? You said you’d see if they’d be okay with an atheist auditing their meeting. If it were me, I’d say, “Change “jesus” to “myself” and never mention the bible.” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-second-com-creationist-agenda/487149/40 "2009-02-26T01:23:15Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > It’s not entirely clear to me from the OP, but am I right in thinking that you knew before you rang these people that they espoused creationism, and that your purpose in calling was to take issue with that? > > If so, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. Creationism deserves to be challenged. > > But I’m bothered by the assumption that the website was a “front” for a creationist agenda. The fact that these people believe in kooky ideas like creationism doesn’t mean that they have no other views or thoughts. In their view, the presentation of personal testimonies about the powerful effects of relationships with Jesus Christ may be wholly justified and worthy, in and of themselves as a testimony about the reality and power of Jesus. > > Most religious movements have a very wide-ranging theology; fundamentalist literalist Christians are no exception. Any religious movement that uses personal testimonies as an attempt to engage people’s interest (or, for that matter, any non-religious movement which does so) is naturally going to present its views to those whose interests are engaged. > > In asking “how can we legally stop hidden religious agendas online legally”, you’re coming perilously close to saying that people who believe in creationism are not allowed to talk about anything else, and are being dishonest if they do. I can’t figure that. Well, yes and no. I WAS jumping on creationism as soon as they told me they supported it, in schools and as an alternative view of science. (At least, one person did.) But no, creationists can make sites, say they believe in it, should be taught, only true science, what have you, but when one small site just asks for you to accept Jesus, they ride on the bandwagon and exposure possibilities with more powerful sites that support that AND other aspects of a religion, it feels, hell it is dishonest. I Am Second stated this only on the phone, yet Need Him Ministries posted that on their site AND on the phone. In essence, I find Need Him Ministries to be more honest than their affiliate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-second-com-creationist-agenda/487149.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-second-com-creationist-agenda/487149.md?page=3)