# I apologise in advance: Crop Circles **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 5, 2003, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653 "2003-09-05T03:28:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![flonks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ab097/32.png) [@flonks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flonks)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/21 "2003-09-05T19:22:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\* They came out a few years later and admitted that they were the original hoaxers but by that time copycat hoaxers had spread the fad all over the world. > \*\* This is not actually a proof that **all** crop circles are hoax. Ever heard of induction vs. deduction? Deduction: Swans are white. This is a swan -\> it is white. Deduction is logically founded. Induction: This is a swan. It is white -\> all swans are white. Induction is logically **not** founded, although all **empirical** research is based on it. There we can learn whether empirical science is able to prove something. Refer to Sir Karl Popper for details šŸ˜ƒ Anyway, we all know that ā€œtrueā€ phenomena get copied rather quickly by hoaxers. So, this really does not prove anything. ---
**Author:** ![Tusculan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecd19e/32.png) [@Tusculan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tusculan)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/22 "2003-09-05T19:46:40Z")
You are ignoring the third alternative. _Why_ do these guys suddenly think of creating crop circles while having a pint in the pub? And _why_ does this fad spread all over the world? Isnā€™t it clear? The aliens use their mind beams to implant a crop circle creating impulse into innocent human minds! So indeed it is hapless humans who are doing the crafty aliensā€™ bidding. This cunning ploy deflects all suspicion from their devious machinations. I of course am safe from their influence because Iā€™m having my tinfoil hat safely glued to my head. My apologies for the abhorrent amount of adjectives in this post. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/23 "2003-09-05T20:49:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by eburacum45 \* > **It turns out that Zeta Reticuli has a vast expanse of cereal- like plant growth;** Fun Fact: The real Zeta Reticuli is actually **two** stars, [Zeta[sub]1[/sub] Reticuli](http://www.stellar-database.com/Scripts/search_star.exe?ID=23900) and [Zeta[sub]2[/sub] Reticuli](http://www.stellar-database.com/Scripts/search_star.exe?ID=24100), which are probably orbiting each other some 5000+ A.U.s apart. Which begs the question: **Which** of the two Zeta Reticuli stars is the aliensā€™ home planet orbiting? ---
**Author:** ![Tusculan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecd19e/32.png) [@Tusculan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tusculan)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/24 "2003-09-05T21:26:07Z")
This may be the wine speaking, but **Zeta Reticuli** sounds uncommonly dirty for a starā€™s name. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/25 "2003-09-05T22:05:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tusculan \* > \*\*This may be the wine speaking, but **Zeta Reticuli** sounds uncommonly dirty for a starā€™s name. \*\* Probably itā€™s the starā€™s porn name. You know, the name of the first planet to orbit you combined with the name of the stellar nursery where you were born. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/26 "2003-09-05T22:16:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by godzillatemple \* > Besides, everybody knows that crop circles are _really_ caused by plasma vortices. No way, dude! Everybody knows they are caused by neutral, non-aligned electrons vibrating at the universal nano-frequency of 2.74 gilahertz, objectifying the space-time continuum of hyperspace, propagating thru wildly warped & wavy wormholes! Sheesh. Donā€™t get me startedā€¦ ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/27 "2003-09-05T22:26:31Z")
Iā€™ve seen crop circles in Avebury (site of the graetest neolithic monuments in the UK and nr Stonehenge), but it has been well known for a while that there are groups of people who go out and create these crop circles. Sorry no aliens. ---
**Author:** ![photopat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e95f7d/32.png) [@photopat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/photopat)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/28 "2003-09-05T22:55:20Z")
Talk about timing. There was a piece on the WGN morning news today about some crop circles that have ā€œappearedā€ in the midwest. (sorry, no link) In the _first_ picture they showed, two lines going from the circle formation to the edge of the field were clearly visible. Now, I suppose those could have been made by people going into the field _after_ the formation was made, but itā€™s certainly possible that the people who did the plant stomping werenā€™t particularly careful about walking in between rows and not treading on the soybeans. To their credit, the news people didnā€™t seem to think the loonies were right about the circles being extraterrestrial in origin. Of course, there were all those green glowing meteor fragmentsā€¦ ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2003, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/29 "2003-09-06T00:37:44Z")
What happens to the wheat? Do these circles damage the harvest? Do the farmers ever sue? How would you serve a summons on a Martian, anyway? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2003, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/30 "2003-09-06T01:34:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*Itā€™s amazing. The people who fake these things have _admitted_ that they fake them. It is an open secret that this is performance art. IIRC, this fad was originally started by a couple of blokes in England who hatched the idea while having a few pints in a pub. They came out a few years later and admitted that they were the original hoaxers but by that time copycat hoaxers had spread the fad all over the world. > > I agree with **Lemur** that some of the work is quite stunning. \*\* The story of the two drunks was debunked less than a week after they told it. Scientists quickly pointed out the difference between the circles they made and ā€œsomethingā€ else made. The sheer numbers of the circles would have debunked them anyway. On some nights over 100 crop circles appeared and something like 1500 appeared in a year. The crop circles were not limited to England, but appeared all over the world. If one truly wants to know about them there are a lot of good books out. While I donā€™t know if they were made by aliens or not, I am sure they were not made by two drunks from a pub. Love ---
**Author:** ![Largo62](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Largo62](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Largo62)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2003, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/31 "2003-09-06T01:52:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Max Torque \* > \*\*If we humans traveled a thousand light years to a distant and fantastic world, do you think we would introduce ourselves to the locals by stomping on their wheat? \*\* **Max** , that wasnā€™t just a ā€œtee heeā€, but a full belly laugh. Thanks! And **lekatt** , do you mean to say that none of them was created by aliens in the throes of a near death experience? šŸ˜‰ ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2003, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/32 "2003-09-06T01:53:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Biggirl \* > \*\*What happens to the wheat? Do these circles damage the harvest? Do the farmers ever sue? > > How would you serve a summons on a Martian, anyway? \*\* The wheat was not damaged. The stems were bent over in a uniform style, but not broken. There are about 70 books on crop circles listed on Amazon, read at least 5 or 6 of them. Read both sides of the debate so you can make up your own mind. Being skeptical for the sake of skepticism is insane. 1. Vital Signs: A Complete Guide to the Crop Circle Mystery and Why It Is Not a Hoax by Andy Thomas, Mike Leigh (Paperback - January 2003) Love ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2003, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/33 "2003-09-06T02:00:52Z")
**lekatt** , good sir, without contributions from you and those who think like you, this forum would be noticeably duller. More thoughtful, rational, and enlightened, perhaps, but certainly duller. Thanks for sticking with it! > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by lekatt_ > **The story of the two drunks was debunked less than a week after they told it. Scientists quickly pointed out the difference between the circles they made and ā€œsomethingā€ else made.** Iā€™ve always wanted to ask this hereā€¦ _ **Cite?** _ > [@](#): > > The sheer numbers of the circles would have debunked them anyway. On some nights over 100 crop circles appeared and something like 1500 appeared in a year. The crop circles were not limited to England, but appeared all over the world. Damn, you got us! We rationalists stupidly put all our eggs into the thesis basket that only two guys in the entire world were capable of squashing plants with a rope and a board! What fools we were! Yep, you paranormalists sure got us good this timeā€¦ This ā€œsomething elseā€ that made the ostensibly _ā€œrealā€_ crop circles: Whatā€™s your theory about why that ā€œsomethingā€ listened to and followed the news so adamantly that the number of crop circles were so strongly correlated with the timing of press reports? Oh, and thanks for expressing your fondness. I love you, too. ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2003, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/34 "2003-09-06T02:07:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Biggirl \* > \*\*What happens to the wheat? Do these circles damage the harvest? \*\* No, the extraterrestrial phlogiston vortices use their boards and ropes gently enough that the crops are unharmed and are still harvestable. In fact, farmerā€™s often make extra cash by charging admission to the lekattā€™s of the world to come and gawk at the Braille of the Gods. Thereā€™s a seeker born every minute! If I were a farmer and wanted to make some quick cash, Iā€™d actually hire the ā€œvorticesā€ to express themselves in their fieldsā€¦ ---
**Author:** ![rpkc4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c2a13f/32.png) [@rpkc4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rpkc4)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2003, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/35 "2003-09-06T03:07:54Z")
talk about copycatsā€¦ i was browsing the local video store, and i see some movie about crop circles in the new releases. Was it SIGNS? NO. i forget what it is called. Dangerous Warnings or something close to thatā€¦anywaysā€¦ can someone tell me which movie came out first, and the second part, is ā€œdangerous signsā€ worth checking out. ---
**Author:** ![Doc\_Nickel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5fc32e/32.png) [@Doc\_Nickel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doc_Nickel)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2003, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/36 "2003-09-06T05:03:36Z")
I will repeat what **Q.E.D.** stated, and say that it is _absurdly unlikely_, bordering on the _impossible_, that any crop circle, seen anywhere, can be cinsidered ā€œauthenticā€, meaning a creation, for whatever reason, by extraterrestrials. Radiation? Iron glaze? Growth rate slowed? Plant DND altered? Glowing mineral nearby? Stange sounds heard that night? Fine, Iā€™ll believe it the very second you show some proof. **Lekatt** , having books in Amazon isnā€™t proof- they have books on _The X-Men_, astrology, and the use of civet cat gallbladder as an aphrodesiac. Crop circles are fakes. Theyā€™re made for fun, for publicity, for pay, out of sheer boredom, as an intentional hoax or for a movie. If such indicia were indeed made by some space aliens, why circles in grain fields? Iā€™ve never heard of a circle in a golf course, or on the White House lawn, or stamped in the snow. No ā€œalienā€ has ever burned a circle into a Wal-Mart parking lot, or melted one into Mendenhall Glacier. The circles always involve just bending the grass over- itā€™s never cut up and hauled off (because thatā€™s too much work for the hoaxters) or burned (because that moves from pranking into outright vandalism, itā€™s harder to hide the process in the dark, and foresnic analysis can detect the fuels used.) The circles, large as they are, are always confined to one field- wouldnā€™t aliens have the technology to make an ideogram that covers, say, most of Kansas? Thereā€™s areas where grain fields stretch for hundreds of miles, yet the largest circles ever made are only a few hundred yards at best. Nope, sorry. Every crop circle was made by human hands for human purposes. ---
**Author:** ![Largo62](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Largo62](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Largo62)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2003, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/37 "2003-09-06T06:23:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ambushed \* > **Thereā€™s a seeker born every minute!** šŸ˜ƒ Brilliant! ---
**Author:** ![Truth\_Seeker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2003, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/38 "2003-09-06T06:36:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by flonks \* > \*\*This is not actually a proof that **all** crop circles are hoax. Ever heard of induction vs. deduction? \*\* Yeah, itā€™s come up. > [@](#): > > \*\*There we can learn whether empirical science is able to prove something. Refer to Sir Karl Popper for details \*\* Understand Karl Popper for the big picture. > [@](#): > > \*\*Anyway, we all know that ā€œtrueā€ phenomena get copied rather quickly by hoaxers. So, this really does not prove anything. \*\* Please, not this again. Every single bloody crackpot latches on to this canard like pit bull with a salami. Yes, itā€™s quite true that the scientific method never ā€œprovesā€ anything. But thatā€™s not the way science works. You donā€™t _have_ to demonstrate that every single occurence of crops circles ever was caused by a few lads from the local. Iā€™ll skip the technical explanation why, but by now, the burden of proof is squarely on the shoulders of those who claim that the ā€œladsā€ have tentacles and that the ā€œlocalā€ is on Tau Ceti. This is like the crap Erich Von Daniken used to pull. ā€œThe pyramids are big and really old! _Could_ they have been built by extra-terrestrials???ā€ Yeah, I suppose they could. They _could_ have been built by an extinct race of mildly-retarded giant purple dinosaurs. But if youā€™re going to advance this hypothesis, **you** are going to have to pony up the evidence to prove it. Oh, and guess what? Questions arenā€™t evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2003, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/39 "2003-09-06T14:40:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by flonks \* > \*\*This is not actually a proof that **all** crop circles are hoax. Ever heard of induction vs. deduction? > > Deduction: Swans are white. This is a swan -\> it is white. > Deduction is logically founded. > > Induction: This is a swan. It is white -\> all swans are white. > Induction is logically **not** founded, although all **empirical** research is based on it. There we can learn whether empirical science is able to prove something. Refer to Sir Karl Popper for details šŸ˜ƒ > > Anyway, we all know that ā€œtrueā€ phenomena get copied rather quickly by hoaxers. So, this really does not prove anything. \*\* Youā€™ve got your assumptions backwards. The default presumption is that crop circles (or any other suchlike phenomena) are the product of human effort unless it can be proven that humans are not capable of producing them. It has been more than adequately demonstrated that humans are not only capable of producing crop circles but that they do it fairly effortlessly and frequently. There is no necessity, then, to postulate aliens or ā€œvortexesā€ or anything non-human. Crop circles represent a textbook case of Occamā€™s razor. Adding aliens to the equation is a classic example of unnecessary multiplication. if you see graffitti on the wall do you wonder if maybe _this_ obscene word was scrawled by an alien or do you assume it was a human? How are crop circles any different? ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2003, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/40 "2003-09-06T14:46:05Z")
**Lekatt,** AKA **Leroy of the Infinite Love** , has never met a paranormal phenomena he didnā€™t like. Why should Crop Circles be an exception? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653.md?page=3)