# I apologise in advance: Crop Circles **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 5, 2003, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653 "2003-09-05T03:28:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2003, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/41 "2003-09-06T15:25:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tracer \* > \*\*Fun Fact: > > The real Zeta Reticuli is actually **two** stars, [Zeta[sub]1[/sub] Reticuli](http://www.stellar-database.com/Scripts/search_star.exe?ID=23900) and [Zeta[sub]2[/sub] Reticuli](http://www.stellar-database.com/Scripts/search_star.exe?ID=24100), which are probably orbiting each other some 5000+ A.U.s apart. > > Which begs the question: **Which** of the two Zeta Reticuli stars is the aliens’ home planet orbiting? \*\* From information channelled to me while I was in the bath it turns out to be Zeta [sub]2[/sub] Reticuli; which is lucky as my colleagues have already colonised the [other one](http://www.orionsarm.com/worlds/Zeta_Reticuli.html). ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2003, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/42 "2003-09-06T15:27:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*It’s amazing. The people who fake these things have _admitted_ that they fake them. It is an open secret that this is performance art. IIRC, this fad was originally started by a couple of blokes in England who hatched the idea while having a few pints in a pub. They came out a few years later and admitted that they were the original hoaxers but by that time copycat hoaxers had spread the fad all over the world. > \*\* It is amazing but isn’t a bit surprising. One day in 1917 when there wasn’t much going on otherwise, H.L. Menken wrote _A Neglected Anniversary_, an entirely fabricated history of the bathtub in the US. The story got picked up, circulated widely and even appeared in some standard reference sources. Menken admitted the hoax and tried to end it on several occasions, to no avail. He finally gave up and just let it roll. Here is what Menken wrote about it in 1982: _“First printed in the New York Evening Mail, Dec. 28, 1917. The success of this idle hoax, done in time of war, when more serious writing was impossible, vastly astonished me. It was taken gravely by a great many other newspapers, and presently made its way into medical literature and into standard reference books. It had, of course, no truth in it whatsoever, and I more than once confessed publicly that it was only a jocosity - for example, in Prejudices: Sixth Series, 1927, pp. 194-201. Moreover, it was exposed and denounced by various other men - for example, Vilhjalmur Stefansson, the arctic explorer (and a great connoisseur of human credulity), in his Adventures in Error; New York, 1936, pp. 279-99. But it went on prospering, and in fact is still prospering. Scarcely a month goes by that I do not find the substance of it reprinted, not as foolishness but as fact, and not only in newspapers but in official documents and other works of the highest pretensions.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2003, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/43 "2003-09-06T15:49:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Musicat \* > \*\ ***Lekatt,** AKA **Leroy of the Infinite Love** , has never met a paranormal phenomena he didn’t like. Why should Crop Circles be an exception? \*\* Heh. Reminds of some people I saw a few years ago. I was at my local Borders bookstore, and there were two authors discussing their book. It must have been some kind of new-age thing, and the discussion ran the gamut of BS from hollow-earth to the Atlantis to the Bermuda Triangle to UFOs. You name the bullshit, these people believed it. At one point, they asked if there was any questions. A pretty good one came to mind, which I have to admit I was too shy to ask. "Yes, I have a question: is there anything on earth TOO FUCKING STUPID for you too believe? Is it even possible to come up with theory that is so goddamned ridiculous that you wouldn’t swallow it whole? If a cerified mental patient and known master practical joker told you the Keebler elves lived your colon, would you try to shit out a box of Soft Batch? WHERE IS YOUR BS FILTER? I thought everybody had a filter in their head to stop the BS from sticking, and although I knew of some people with pretty bad filters, I never met anybody that HAD NONE WHATSOEVER!!!" As I said before, I was to shy to do anything but chuckle to myself. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2003, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/44 "2003-09-06T16:13:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Revtim \* > If a cerified mental patient and known master practical joker told you the Keebler elves lived your colon, would you try to shit out a box of Soft Batch? > > WHERE IS YOUR BS FILTER? … I tried this once. I took my colon-produced Keebler Soft Batch and ran it thru my BS filter… :eek: ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2003, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/45 "2003-09-06T17:39:14Z")
MrAndrewV–here’s a bit of advice to give your friend: (other than just telling him to shut up 'cause he’s a gullible fool) Say to him:“No–aliens didnt do it–Jesus Christ did it!! The crop circles are a sure sign of Jesus’s return to earth.” He won’t believe you–New age people are always willing to believe in aliens, in crystal pyramid power,or in astrology–but they never believe in the traditional religions. So challenge him–after all, the evidence is just as strong: unidentified radiation could be caused by Jesus returning from heaven and reconstituting his physical body.After being in heaven for so long as a spirit, he had to re-orient his molecules into a body. Challenge him to disprove your theory. Maybe, just maybe, you’ll convince him that your stupid theory is as “logical” as his stupid theory. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2003, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/46 "2003-09-06T19:13:19Z")
> [@](#): > > Yeah but what about all of this “evidence”? > [http://www.lovely.clara.net/biophysical.html](http://www.lovely.clara.net/biophysical.html) I’ve seen the first figure, labelled “plant chromosomes” at other sites, but bearing the label “plant cells”. Which is it ? The micrographs, +/- any crop circle effects, resemble dried salt droplets more than they do plant cells or chromosomes. Compare these photos to the normal looking cells in the third figure. Something is wrong with the photos. The second figure purporting to show growth differences in barley seed heads incide vs outside a circle, rates a big “so what ?”. The size of fruiting bodies varies in _any_ field. Factors such as an individual plant being _knocked over_ play a part in this. The third figure purports to show pits in cell walls. They are as likely to be crystalline inclusion bodies or storage structures, which are not uncommon. The fourth figure shows an elongated and bent node. As with the second figure, this is a normal result of knocking a grass plant over. Heliotropism directs new growth towards the sun, and the plant develops a kink. Finally, the fifth figure, purporting to show superheated steam “expulsion cavities” at the nodes, bears a striking similarity to _insect damage_. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2003, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/47 "2003-09-06T19:42:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Squink \* > Heliotropism directs new growth towards the sun, and the plant develops a kink. Not unlike the kink that develops in the mind of some people. ---
**Author:** ![Doc\_Nickel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5fc32e/32.png) [@Doc\_Nickel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doc_Nickel)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2003, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/48 "2003-09-06T20:25:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by chappachula \* > \*\*… Say to him:“No–aliens didnt do it–Jesus Christ did it!! The crop circles are a sure sign of Jesus’s return to earth.”[snipped] > > Challenge him to disprove your theory. > Maybe, just maybe, you’ll convince him that your stupid theory is as “logical” as his stupid theory. \*\* -I’ve often gone the other way, in conversations with theists. Think of it: voices in the sky? Spaceships with loudspeakers. A “burning bush”? That could have been a blurry holographic effect, like you see in _Star Wars_. (Say, the device projecting the hologram was mis-aimed and superimposed the image on a tumbleweed type bush?) The ressurrection? Advanced medical technology. How’d he get out of the tomb closed by a huge rock? Transporters. Splitting the Red Sea? Force fields. The loaves and fishes bit? Not to keep in the _Trek_ thing, but that sounds like a replicator at work. Walking on water? Antigravity. Water to wine? Heck, we can almost do that today with things like _Gatorade_ mixes or freeze-dried coffee. I’m told “That’s not how the Bible describes it”, to which I retort “so how _would_ primitive peoples who had barely started to see refined metals react to flying saucers? Heck, for that matter, how would they react to a simple Chevy 4WD pickup truck? or a cell phone? Would they write of it as magic and witchcraft?” > [@](#): > > Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. > – A. C. Clarke ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2003, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/49 "2003-09-07T01:41:41Z")
**Doc Nickel,** you’ve pretty much described Von Daniken’s thought process right there. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2003, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/50 "2003-09-07T02:06:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > **Read both sides of the debate so you can make up your own mind. Being skeptical for the sake of skepticism is insane.** The problem is, the side of the debate which claims the circles, or at least some of them, were created by intelligent beings from another world have the odds stacked heavily against them. The universe is huge. No, make that HUGE. Actually, it’s more like H-U-G-E. Physicists pretty much agree that no massive object can travel at the speed of light, let alone beyond it. Theories that involve warping space or travelling through wormholes to subvert the speed limitations themselves are limited by energy, and rendered impractical, if not impossible at macroscopic scales. So, what we have is a universe where travel is essentially limited to linear distance at, say 90% light-speed, tops. Then we have the odds of life of some sort forming on a planet, and then of those how many evolve intelligent life, and of those how many attain our level of technology or better, and of those how many exist at the same time we do. Even the most liberal estimates say there are no more than 1000 star systems with advanced civilations in them in our galaxy, and given it’s diamter of 100,000 light-years and it’s population of 200 billion stars, the odds of one of those civilizations finding us and paying us regular visits are too miniscule to bother calculating. As far as I’m concerned–until I’m provided with proof to the contrary–it’s never happened. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2003, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/51 "2003-09-07T02:18:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Q.E.D. \* > \*\*The problem is, the side of the debate which claims the circles, or at least some of them, were created by intelligent beings from another world have the odds stacked heavily against them. The universe is huge. No, make that HUGE. Actually, it’s more like H-U-G-E. Physicists pretty much agree that no massive object can travel at the speed of light, let alone beyond it. Theories that involve warping space or travelling through wormholes to subvert the speed limitations themselves are limited by energy, and rendered impractical, if not impossible at macroscopic scales. So, what we have is a universe where travel is essentially limited to linear distance at, say 90% light-speed, tops. Then we have the odds of life of some sort forming on a planet, and then of those how many evolve intelligent life, and of those how many attain our level of technology or better, and of those how many exist at the same time we do. Even the most liberal estimates say there are no more than 1000 star systems with advanced civilations in them in our galaxy, and given it’s diamter of 100,000 light-years and it’s population of 200 billion stars, the odds of one of those civilizations finding us and paying us regular visits are too miniscule to bother calculating. As far as I’m concerned–until I’m provided with proof to the contrary–it’s never happened. \*\* Hooray for you, nothing quite like an argument closed on assumptions and theories. What will science think of next? Love ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2003, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/52 "2003-09-07T02:20:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Q.E.D. \* > \*\*… --until I’m provided with proof to the contrary–it’s never happened. \*\* Hey, you’d better pay attention to **lekatt** , our resident expert on skepticism. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2003, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/53 "2003-09-07T02:40:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > **Hooray for you, nothing quite like an argument closed on assumptions and theories. What will science think of next?** in a debate like this at some point we have to make certain assumptions. I choose to do so rationally–that is I assume, for example, that there are few civilizations compared to total star systems. I do this because 1) we’ve been listening and heard nothing from our 1000 or so neighbors within, say, 200 light years, 2) new stars can be ruled out because even if they do have planets they’ve not cooled enough yet to support life, 3) white dwarfs (the largest population of stars, by far) can be ruled out, because their energy output is too low to support life as we know it 4) there is no natural law stating that intelligence is the final result of evolution and 5) we’ve only existed as an industrialized civilization for about 200 years–just a tiny fraction of a percent of our total history as _homo sapiens_. Note that I am _not_ saying such visitations are impossible–only that they are so unlikely as to be able to be said not to have happened. Flipping a coin 10,000 times and getting heads every time is certainly possible. But I’ll say it’s never happened. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2003, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/54 "2003-09-07T02:40:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by David Simmons \* > \*\*Hey, you’d better pay attention to **lekatt** , our resident expert on skepticism. \*\* Thank you David. I don’t so much care what people think, as long as they do it on their own instead of following the latest trend or fashion. Unfortunately most are very lazy, just take what the professior, teacher, parent, peer, authority figure hands them and believes it so strongly they will defend it to the death. If you haven’t done the research personally, you don’t know. What could be intelligent in that senario? Nothing and everything, just think for yourself occasionally. Love ---
**Author:** ![Truth\_Seeker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2003, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/55 "2003-09-07T02:49:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Q.E.D. \* > \*\*The problem is, the side of the debate which claims the circles, or at least some of them, were created by intelligent beings from another world have the odds stacked heavily against them. \*\* No, the problem with the side of the debate that claims crop circles were created by intelligent beings from another world is that there is not a single fucking shred of evidence that it might be true. There is, on the on the other hand, mountains of evidence tending to prove the contrary. > [@](#): > > \*\*Even the most liberal estimates say there are no more than 1000 star systems with advanced civilations in them in our galaxy, \*\* Cite? The most liberal solutions of the Drake equation usually put the number of currently extant advanced civilizations in the millions. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2003, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/56 "2003-09-07T02:54:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Q.E.D. \* > \*\*in a debate like this at some point we have to make certain assumptions. I choose to do so rationally–that is I assume, for example, that there are few civilizations compared to total star systems. I do this because 1) we’ve been listening and heard nothing from our 1000 or so neighbors within, say, 200 light years, 2) new stars can be ruled out because even if they do have planets they’ve not cooled enough yet to support life, 3) white dwarfs (the largest population of stars, by far) can be ruled out, because their energy output is too low to support life as we know it 4) there is no natural law stating that intelligence is the final result of evolution and 5) we’ve only existed as an industrialized civilization for about 200 years–just a tiny fraction of a percent of our total history as _homo sapiens_. > > Note that I am _not_ saying such visitations are impossible–only that they are so unlikely as to be able to be said not to have happened. Flipping a coin 10,000 times and getting heads every time is certainly possible. But I’ll say it’s never happened. \*\* Why do we have to make assumptions? When you say “I assume” you have left the debate for personal opinions. This is not a bad thing as long as we acknowledge the lack of knowledge. There is nothing wrong with “not knowing”, wisdom starts where knowing leaves off. True knowledge is knowing that we know nothing. – Socrates Perhaps if more skeptics realized this they would be easier to talk with. Love ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2003, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/57 "2003-09-07T03:08:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Truth Seeker \* > \*\*\*\*Cite? The most liberal solutions of the Drake equation usually put the number of currently extant advanced civilizations in the millions. \*\* Are you kidding me? Maybe in the whole universe, but not just our galaxy alone. Run your own numbers at [this site.](http://www.fellowship.net/jerrynixon/documents/theDrakeEquation.htm) Millions! That’s rich. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2003, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/58 "2003-09-07T03:10:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > **The story of the two drunks was debunked less than a week after they told it. Scientists quickly pointed out the difference between the circles they made and “something” else made.** I’ll be the second person to ask for a cite on this, Leroy. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2003, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/59 "2003-09-07T03:11:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Truth Seeker \* > > * * * > > No, the problem with the side of the debate that claims crop circles were created by intelligent beings from another world is that there is not a single fucking shred of evidence that it might be true. There is, on the on the other hand, mountains of evidence tending to prove the contrary. > > Cite? The most liberal solutions of the Drake equation usually put the number of currently extant advanced civilizations in the millions. \*\* Oh, Truth Seeker, just wanted you to know there is a huge amount of evidence concerning intelligent beings from other planets. You might start here: Messages from Space: Crop Circles Bring the First Indisputable Extra-Terrestrial Signs from Space by Jay Goldner (Paperback) Avg. Customer Rating: 5 stars Then there are about 150 more books on the subject. Now please don’t tell me you know all about how fake these books are without reading them. I just won’t believe you. Love ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2003, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/60 "2003-09-07T03:14:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > **Now please don’t tell me you know all about how fake these books are without reading them. I just won’t believe you.** No offense Lekatt, but just what would it take for _you to **believe** someone_? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653.md?page=4)