# I apologise in advance: Crop Circles **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 5, 2003, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653 "2003-09-05T03:28:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![GOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GOM)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2003, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/81 "2003-09-08T16:34:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Squink \* > \*\*While this is true, it’d be nice to see some evidence that survives the “quick glance” test. All I’ve seen is endlessly repeated BS. If the truth is out there, surely the evidence to back it up is out there as well. \*\* Some are not interested in truth. It scares them. In connection with crop circles, there appears to be a deliberate effort to muddy the waters… Have you ever taken the time to look into Dr. Levengood’s work? ---
**Author:** ![GOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GOM)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2003, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/82 "2003-09-08T16:41:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Epimetheus \* > \*\*Care to provide a valid cite showing the military’s interest in crop circles. \*\* No. That’s **above top secret!** If I told you, then I would have to kill you. 😃 Besides, they would deny it anyway. You know that… ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2003, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/83 "2003-09-08T16:43:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Musicat \* > But WTF can you make out of this from [the Latest News](http://www.hellojupiter.com/inwebE/latestnews.html) page: “The Geometrical Decoding of the Chilbolton-Crabwood-Riddle” other than to show the webmaster can use Photoshop? You know, that funky “circle” with the alien portrait and the cd-looking thing I saw deconstructed on Slashdot a while back. There was a just for kicks sort of story showing some of the more elaborate recent crop art. Anyways, the /. crowd, geeks that they are, went to work on the pattern on the cd, decoding it as if it were, if memory serves, ascii, and it actually contained a real message, though I can’t for the life of me remember what it might have been. I shall have to go dig through their archives. The whole thing was really quite entertaining. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2003, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/84 "2003-09-08T16:55:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GOM \* > \*\*Have you ever taken the time to look into Dr. Levengood’s work? \*\* Joe Nickell of CSICOP [has](http://www.csicop.org/sb/9606/crop_circle.html) and demostrates his methodology and conclusions are biased and specious. ---
**Author:** ![GOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GOM)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2003, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/85 "2003-09-08T16:55:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Q.E.D. \* > \*\*With all due respect to Dr. Drake, his numbers are a bit liberal. His formula was developed in 1961 and the figures he plugged into the equation are now horribly outdated. [This](http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=0009CDEA-33FC-1C74-9B81809EC588EF21&pageNumber=1&catID=2)_Scientific American_ article from June, 2000 suggests there may be, at most 1000 currently extant civilizations in our galaxy, which means they are an average of about 1000 light-years apart. If some alien civilization is sending spaceships that take 1000 years to get here and another 1000 years to get home just to trample some wheat fields in pretty patterns, well they’re a lot stupider than we are. \*\* We have, so far, an example of exactly **one planet** with life on it. With all due respect to Drake and Q.E.D., any extrapolation done from one point is just an exercise in wishful thinking. That makes it common ground for New Agers and evolutionists. P.S. Supposedly the “aliens” have a way of bending space/time so they can travel between the stars much faster than light. It’s an interesting sci-fi idea… ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2003, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/86 "2003-09-08T16:55:34Z")
Ah, memory does not serve. How embarassing. The [Slashdot story](http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/01/26/0137236&mode=thread&tid=133) contained a link to an [article](http://www.swirlednews.com/article.asp?artID=512) which decoded the “cd”, revealing the message “Beware the bearers of FALSE gifts & their BROKEN PROMISES. Much PAIN but still time. BELIEvE. There is GOOD out there. We OPpose DECEPTION. Conduit CLOSING. Acknowledge.” (Ignoring a couple encoding errors. Oops!) The slashdotters then proceded to make fun of the “aliens” for their use of ascii. Ah well. Still entertaining, even if I remembered it slightly differently. ---
**Author:** ![Super\_Gnat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Super\_Gnat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Super_Gnat)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2003, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/87 "2003-09-08T16:58:56Z")
To expand on someone else’s throwaway point, **lekatt** , do you believe that traditional forms of graffiti are caused by aliens as well? Why or why not? ---
**Author:** ![GOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GOM)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2003, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/88 "2003-09-08T16:59:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Q.E.D. \* > \*\*Joe Nickell of CSICOP [has](http://www.csicop.org/sb/9606/crop_circle.html) and demostrates his methodology and conclusions are biased and specious. \*\* Ah yes! The always unbiased Mr. Nickell… 😉 I’ll have to take a look at your link when I have a bit more time, or need a good laugh. Later. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2003, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/89 "2003-09-08T17:16:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GOM \* > \*\*Ah yes! > > The always unbiased Mr. Nickell… > > 😉 > > I’ll have to take a look at your link when I have a bit more time, or need a good laugh. > > Later. > > 🙂 \*\* Gee, there’s a valid counterargument… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Dob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Dob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dob)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2003, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/90 "2003-09-08T17:19:58Z")
> [@](#): > > Now, if you’ll excuse me, I have to go find that talking penguin that kept running for President back in the 80s. woot! wtg Doc! Its been a looongg time since I have seen a Bloomcounty reference! kudos. For the record, and off the topic, I would take Bill the Cat and Opus over George and Dick anyday! ---
**Author:** ![Truth\_Seeker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2003, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/91 "2003-09-08T17:20:08Z")
**Q.E.D.** You really need to read your own cites – this is GD and precision counts. You said that “even the most liberal estimate” estimate is that there are “no more than” 1000. What your cite actually said was: > [@](#): > > One of the current leaders of the field, Paul Horowitz of Harvard University, has stated that he expects **at least** one radio-transmitting civilization to reside within 1,000 light-years of the sun, a volume of space that contains roughly a million solar-type stars. If so, something like 1,000 civilizations should inhabit the galaxy as a whole. Bolding mine. So what you should have said is that “one researcher guesses there are at least 1000 civilizations.” This is a far cry from “the most liberal estimate” being "no more than"1000. > [@](#): > > \*\*With all due respect to Dr. Drake, his numbers are a bit liberal. His formula was developed in 1961 and the figures he plugged into the equation are now horribly outdated. \*\* You are utterly and completely full of shit. Drake is currently Senior Scientist for the SETI Institute, the leading SETI research organization in the world. [http://www.seti.org/about\_us/leadership/staff/frank\_d.html](http://www.seti.org/about_us/leadership/staff/frank_d.html) ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2003, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/92 "2003-09-08T17:21:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GOM \* > \*\*No. That’s **above top secret!** If I told you, then I would have to kill you. \*\* Hey!! I read that book :D, back in highschool… … oh wait, you weren’t actually talking about it… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2003, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/93 "2003-09-08T17:37:51Z")
Didn’t think you would provide a cite. Funny how it is so top secret yet YOU know about it. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Chicago\_Faucet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chicago_faucet/32/13910_2.png) [@Chicago\_Faucet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chicago_Faucet)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2003, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/94 "2003-09-08T17:47:21Z")
I always thought that the aliens were just bypassing the humans altogether, and came here just to communicate with the wheat. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2003, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/95 "2003-09-08T18:09:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Truth Seeker \* > \*\*Drake is currently Senior Scientist for the SETI Institute, the leading SETI research organization in the world. > > [http://www.seti.org/about\_us/leadership/staff/frank\_d.html](http://www.seti.org/about_us/leadership/staff/frank_d.html) \*\* Look, I admire SETI and its work. I run SET@home. But face it, they are not the most unbiased folks when it comes to estimating things like Galactic civilization distribution. Naturally, SETI is going to estimate towards the high end. In any case, I don’t know why you are arguing with me. I’m certainly not saying we are the only advanced civilization in our galaxy. I’m only saying I don’t think they’re terribly common, and certainly are not visiting us. ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2003, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/96 "2003-09-08T18:20:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chicago Faucet \* > I always thought that the aliens were just bypassing the humans altogether, and came here just to communicate with the wheat. And why not - the cereal crops have evidently astutely co-opted those pesky mammals in their successful attempt to colonise large swathes of the planet. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2003, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/97 "2003-09-08T18:33:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Super Gnat \* > \*\*To expand on someone else’s throwaway point, **lekatt** , do you believe that traditional forms of graffiti are caused by aliens as well? Why or why not? \*\* They are made by aliens. here’s my cite: Traditional Graffiti: Them pictures on the subway is made by aliens! by A. Guy, A. Nother Guy (Paperback - January 2003) Avg. Customer Rating: 5 chocolate starfish If that isn’t proof, I dunno what is… ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2003, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/98 "2003-09-08T18:37:24Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by lekatt_: > > Vital Signs: A Complete Guide to the Crop Circle Mystery and Why It Is Not a Hoax > by Andy Thomas, Mike Leigh (Paperback - January 2003) > Avg. Customer Rating: > > The Deepening Complexity of Crop Circles: Scientific Research and Urban Legends > by Eltjo H. Haselhoff (Paperback) > Avg. Customer Rating: > > Secrets in the Fields: The Science and Mysticism of Crop Circles > by Freddy Silva (Paperback - September 2002) > Avg. Customer Rating I hereby volunteer to reed any one of these “citations” from cover to cover, and report back with a summary of the author’s most incontrovertible points, if any. I’d just like to know which of these books **lekatt** considers to be the most authoritative and substantial, so I can choose that one. This assumes that **lekatt** has actually read any of them himself. ---
**Author:** ![Truth\_Seeker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2003, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/99 "2003-09-08T21:05:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Q.E.D. \* > \*\*In any case, I don’t know why you are arguing with me. \*\* Being such an inexperienced poster you may be unaware of this, but people in GD will often argue with you when you spout untruths – especially when you try and defend them. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2003, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/100 "2003-09-08T21:14:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Truth Seeker \* > \*\*Being such an inexperienced poster you may be unaware of this, but people in GD will often argue with you when you spout untruths – especially when you try and defend them. \*\* My figures are no more or less truthful than yours. The fact is there are too many numbers to be plugged into Drake’s equation which _we simply do not know to even several orders of magnitude_. To say that a figure of 1,000 extant civilizations is any less correct than one of 1,000,000 is foolish as both are based on sheer guesswork. I raised the issue as a means to demostrate the unlikeliness of alien life having visited us. Are you suggesting it has? Your vehemence is misplaced. Sounding like you’re frothing at the mouth doesn’t go far towards convincing one of your rationality. I am more than happy to debate this topic with yuy, but I refuse to do so if you cannot maintain a decent level of civility. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653.md?page=6)