# I apologise in advance: Crop Circles **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 5, 2003, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653 "2003-09-05T03:28:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![GOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GOM)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/121 "2003-09-10T13:57:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DesertGeezer \* > \*\*a man ran onto the stage, lunged at the speaker, knocked him down and then ran off the stage. > > \*\* I’m sure you realize there is a huge difference between a surprise, quick event and an event that can be studied over a longer period of time. And, as I stated earlier, there are eyewitnesses and there are eyewitnesses. Some people are trained to be reliable observers. Most are not. You pull that little stunt in front of 100 police officers and you will get vastly higher quality data. You have to show some balance in these things, not just throw out all eyewitness testimony based on one brief experience you had 40 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![GOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GOM)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/122 "2003-09-10T14:03:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ambushed \* > \*\*let me remind you that some of the leaders of the military/CIA are just as credulous, ignorant, and desperate for magic as you foil-hats are. Why would you ever think otherwise? Hell, they actually funded “research” into remote viewing! How much more evidence that they can be stupidly credulous do you need? \*\* RAMS?! Is that you? Yes. We had a monster thread here a while ago that touched on remote viewing, among other things. Bigfoot too, as I recall. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![GOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GOM)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/123 "2003-09-10T14:08:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Attrayant \* > \*\*How do you know which eyewitness testimony to accept, while making absolutely certain that confirmation bias isn’t sneaking in? > > Imagine a chemist who, after conducting a round of experiments, learns that a few of his test tubes were dirty. How does he determine which set of results to keep and which to throw out? Can we let the chemist himself decide? Of course not. \*\* How does your scenario relate in any way to eyewitness testimony? With the case of your chemist we throw out the experiment and do it again. with clean test tubes. When other scientists can repeat his experiments and get the same results we have confidence that we have facts. ---
**Author:** ![GOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GOM)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/124 "2003-09-10T14:19:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Meatros \* > \*\*If there is no external evidence to validate the eyewitness, then how can you sort out the fact from the fiction? \*\* Think about your question… Now, from your own life, think about a situation where you have received eyewitness testimony. How did you sort fact from fiction? ---
**Author:** ![GOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GOM)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/125 "2003-09-10T14:31:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Doc Nickel \* > \*\* > > Sadly, the world is full of people like him, and **lekatt**. Even in the face of the truth, they’d rather believe the lie because the lie is more interesting. \*\* What a cute little story. I’m sure we all can happily throw out all eyewitness testimony based on stage tricks. P.S. It really improves the quality of your “argument” when you throw in a gratuitous slam at lekatt… :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/126 "2003-09-10T15:05:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GOM \* > \*\*Think about your question… > > Now, from your own life, think about a situation where you have received eyewitness testimony. How did you sort fact from fiction? \*\* Personally I looked at the available evidence and how probable the event that was in question was. If I couldn’t come to a solid conclusion, then I didn’t come to a solid conclusion. As others have pointed out, eyewitness testimony is a very fallible thing. What I don’t understand is how someone can accept eyewitness testimony of something extraordinary without any sort of evidence to confirm it. I don’t think that anyone is arguing that eyewitness testimony is completely useless-it just can’t be the only evidence one has. ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/127 "2003-09-10T15:48:18Z")
Then lets throw out all the eye witnesses and… wait. We’re talking about crop circles here. **GOM** , what eye witness testimony are you talking about in your post of 12:38 on the 9th and how does it relate to the origin of crop circles? ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/128 "2003-09-10T16:26:48Z")
He is avoiding the issue of his claim that the Military is interested in crop circles. \*Notice I capitalized Military GOM, that means I mean the military as a whole, not some Major or another that has a personal interest. I am talking goverment funds being spent here. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/129 "2003-09-10T16:39:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > \*\*I will believe them when they speak truth. > Simple is it not? > > “But how will I know truth?” – Luke Skywalker > > “Ye shall know truth by its peace and calm.” --Yoda > Love \*\* Um, you are aware that these are _fictional_ charactors, right? ---
**Author:** ![GOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GOM)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/130 "2003-09-11T15:26:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Meatros \* > \*\* > > 1. I don’t think that anyone is arguing that eyewitness testimony is completely useless > > 2. -it just can’t be the only evidence one has. \*\* 1. Debunkers often wildly thrash eyewitness testimony, in a number of topics. They imply it is useless. It’s not. 2. Sometimes that’s all we have. There is eyewitness testimony about military choppers hanging around crop circles and even chasing the “balls of light” that are sometimes associated with crop circles. The military/industrial complex is not going to acknowledge any official interest in this topic. They learned their lesson when they got burned by their interest in remote viewing. However, the interest of the military in UFOs is well documented by historian Richard Dolan. If you care to learn a little about him, here’s his link: [http://keyholepublishing.com/about.htm](http://keyholepublishing.com/about.htm) All this paranormal/New Age stuff is related. Remote viewing, UFOs, crop circles, aliens, ghosts and demons. HTH ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/131 "2003-09-11T17:15:15Z")
> [@](#): > > The military/industrial complex is not going to acknowledge any official interest in this topic. Yes of course. The military, in an effort to conceal their interest in the UFO craze, went public with a 22 year study called Blue Book. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/132 "2003-09-11T17:20:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GOM \* > > 1. Debunkers often wildly thrash eyewitness testimony, in a number of topics. They imply it is useless. It’s not. That’s right. It’s not useless. It often a good study in psychology, for one, as [Elizabeth Loftus and Carol Tavris](http://www.skepdic.com/memory.html) found out. Eyewitness testimony should be given all the weight it deserves. If ten independent observers claim a red car passed them at the same time & place, that’s probably good, cooroborating evidence. Red cars do exist and they do pass by people. Accepting their claims does not overturn scientific concepts. But if ten observers claim to have been abducted, probed and flown to Venus by aliens from Mars in spaceships built on Zeta Reticuli, would you say this testimony is of the same caliber? Should we accept such claims, which overturn much of what science and our daily world depends upon, as sufficent to do so? In spite of _hard, solid_ evidence that suggests their memories are faulty? > [@](#): > > All this paranormal/New Age stuff is related. Remote viewing, UFOs, crop circles, aliens, ghosts and demons. It certainly seems so, at least in the minds of some people. But what does it mean when the wild & fantastical claims of the proponents of one are used to bolster the claims of another? **Bad evidence does not become good evidence by sheer volume alone.** > [@](#): > > Sometimes that’s all [the evidence] we have. Then, before you propose rewriting many of the known laws of the universe, you better get a lot more. Until then, I remain skeptical, and you should be, too. ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/133 "2003-09-11T17:23:05Z")
So, because the military showed interest in a subject with little understanding at the time, that means they are now currently and actively interested? Uh huh. The military is currently interested in defeating the Germans and liberating Europe. Go Allies, down with the Nazi’s. Ooorah! ---
**Author:** ![Truth\_Seeker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/134 "2003-09-11T19:28:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GOM \* > \*\*All this paranormal/New Age stuff is related. Remote viewing, UFOs, crop circles, aliens, ghosts and demons. > \*\* That’s for sure. The really interesting thing here isn’t crop circles, it’s the psychological twist that forces some people to believe there’s a conspiracy, albeit an alien one, involved. According to some research recently reported in _The Economist_, certain people are prone to conspiracy theories. Per the research, the larger the consequences of some event, the more prone these people were to believe there was a conspiracy behind it. The speculation is that people prone to believe conspiracy theories do so because they have a need to believe that someone – even an evil someone – is in control of events. While there are, no doubt, exceptions (Ariana Huffington, for example) one common thread that may tie conspiracy theorists, crop circle enthusiasts and general new-age wackos together is a general a feeling of powerlessness or lack of control in their own lives. Retreating into fantasy may be a way of coping with what they would otherwise perceive as a lack of personal achievement. In other words, Big hopes + minimal results = either bitter, hopeless misanthrope or relatively decent person with an, err, _active_ fantasy life. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/135 "2003-09-11T20:52:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Epimetheus \* > \*\*Yes, but according the the New age crowd, this is not existant. People remember things clearly, never lie, never confabulate, and never are mistaken. Eyewitness testimony is 100% accurate, and if DNA tests prove otherwise, well, science is hokey. Those skeptics and rationalists are all close minded! \*\* You don’t know how amused I am that **GOM** is implicated as a New Ager. > [@](#): > > All this paranormal/New Age stuff is related. Remote viewing, UFOs, crop circles, aliens, ghosts and demons. You left off angels, life after death, near death experiences and gods. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/136 "2003-09-11T23:52:45Z")
I have to point out that a large proportion of the English circles are found in Wiltshire, which is full of the kind of people that fake these things for a laugh; they move there to be near Stonehenge and Avebury. and is also half full of military training ranges; any crop circle in Wiltshire is likely to be accompanied by military activity, helicopters and the rest \* because that is where they train the army wallahs to use them\*; it is as simple and innocent as that. ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/137 "2003-09-12T02:12:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Homebrew \* > \*\*You don’t know how amused I am that **GOM** is implicated as a New Ager. > > \*\* Well, his past posting style points towards the zany conspiracy theorist. Always trying to warn the unwary of the evils of those out to get us. Generally including things like UFOs and crop circles as evidenced by these posts. I generally lump all those together- sure it is a bit of a broad brush, but it takes quite a few broad strokes to try and keep all the loonies in one corner. ---
**Author:** ![GOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GOM)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/138 "2003-09-12T05:04:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Attrayant \* > \*\*Yes of course. The military, in an effort to conceal their interest in the UFO craze, went public with a 22 year study called Blue Book. \*\* True. But did you have a point to make regarding crop circles? Btw, not everything about UFOs was covered by Blue Book. Also, we won’t get any confirmation from the military about UFOs but I’m convinced that some UFOs are our own craft. ---
**Author:** ![GOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GOM)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/139 "2003-09-12T05:13:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Musicat \* > \*\* > > 1. But if ten observers claim to have been abducted, probed and flown to Venus by aliens from Mars in spaceships built on Zeta Reticuli, would you say this testimony is of the same caliber? > > 2. In spite of _hard, solid_ evidence that suggests their memories are faulty? > > 3. Bad evidence does not become good evidence by sheer volume alone. > > 4. Until then, I remain skeptical, and you should be, too. \*\* 1. No. 2. Do you have a cite for this “hard solid” evidence? Professor David Jacobs has done years of study on this and he disagrees with your assertion. [http://www.temple.edu/history/jacobs.html](http://www.temple.edu/history/jacobs.html) 1. True. 2. I am. There’s a huge difference between a skeptic and a debunker. ---
**Author:** ![GOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GOM)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653/140 "2003-09-12T05:20:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by eburacum45 \* > \*\*I have to point out that a large proportion of the English circles are found in Wiltshire, which is full of the kind of people that fake these things for a laugh; > \*\* You might be correct, but exactly what % do you mean by a large proportion? I hate to point out the obvious so many times, but just because some crop circles are fake does not mean all of them are fake. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-apologise-in-advance-crop-circles/199653.md?page=8)