# I before E, except after Me **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 25, 2007, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-before-e-except-after-me/389397 "2007-01-25T12:42:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-before-e-except-after-me/389397/1 "2007-01-25T12:42:41Z")
Last night my third grade son’s homework assignment was to think of three words that illustrate the spelling rule “I before E, except after C.” Naturally, my first thought was to subvert this process by generating three words that break this rule. Unfortunately my son, who is far more of a suck-up than I am, did the assignment without my help. But I can’t help wistfully thinking…what words should he have submitted? Possibilities I’ve come up with are: seize, eidetic, height, heifer, leitmotif, and wierd. Some initially promising candidates (lei, seine, weir, heir, and geisha) must sadly be rejected because of the next part of the rule: “…or when sounded like A, as in neighbor or weigh.” And of course, words like “being” and “icier” are cheating. For a word to count, I think the I and the E (or E and I) have to be pronounced as one vowel sound. What about it, Dopers? Can you think of other words that would help illustrate to my son that rules should be skeptically evaluated, not swallowed wholesale? (Extra points for words that are spelled with an “ie” but are pronounced “a.”) ---
**Author:** ![picunurse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7bcc69/32.png) [@picunurse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/picunurse)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-before-e-except-after-me/389397/2 "2007-01-25T13:24:18Z")
You spelled “weird” wrong. 😛 Leisure, peignoir, neither, meiosis, feisty, feirie, (it means nimble). That’s all I’ve got. If I missed the “a” sound rule, it’s because I’m still asleep. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-before-e-except-after-me/389397/3 "2007-01-25T14:23:28Z")
OMG, I _DID_ misspell “weird.” Nice catch, as we used to say in the copyediting biz. Plus I thought of one more: surfeit. ---
**Author:** ![Mindfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mindfield/32/19759_2.png) [@Mindfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mindfield)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-before-e-except-after-me/389397/4 "2007-01-25T14:40:34Z")
Rottweiler, weir, sheik, neither, heist, freight, forfeit, foreign, weight, Latin “scire” derivatives (science, conscience, omniscient, etc., which are direct exceptions to “except after C”), the “eine” chemicals (caffeine, codeine), obeisance, and probably a dozen or two more I can’t think of offhand. ---
**Author:** ![Santo\_Rugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Santo\_Rugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Santo_Rugger)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-before-e-except-after-me/389397/5 "2007-01-25T16:02:49Z")
Did you know drinking beer makes you smarter? It made Bud weiser ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-before-e-except-after-me/389397/6 "2007-01-25T16:11:40Z")
[QUOTE=CairoCarol] What about it, Dopers? Can you think of other words that would help illustrate to my son that rules should be skeptically evaluated, not swallowed wholesale? (Extra points for words that are spelled with an “ie” but are pronounced “a.”) [/QUOTE] I was going to post sleigh and neigh, but your instructions contradict this. :eek: Did you mean ‘Extra points for words that are spelled with an “ **ei** ” but are pronounced “a”.’? ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ea5d25/32.png) [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-before-e-except-after-me/389397/7 "2007-01-25T17:57:21Z")
“Society.” Hence, my favorite phrase, which I think was one Doper’s sig line: “I before E, except after C. Boy, do we live in a weird society.” ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Carnage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/max_carnage/32/12775_2.png) [@Max\_Carnage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Carnage)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-before-e-except-after-me/389397/8 "2007-01-25T17:59:23Z")
[Brian Regan] “I before E except after C Or when sounding like A as in Neighbor or Weigh Or on weekdays or holidays or all throughout May And you’ll never be right no matter what you say!” [/Brian Regan] ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-before-e-except-after-me/389397/9 "2007-01-25T20:58:59Z")
I went looking for [this](http://photos1.blogger.com/img/22/3719/640/frazz6.jpg) comic strip, and I found [this one](http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003785.html), too, which comes with lots of neat information about the rule. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Tiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@Mama\_Tiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Tiger)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-before-e-except-after-me/389397/10 "2007-01-25T22:02:49Z")
Years ago I learned this version of the rhyme: I before E, except after C Or when sounded as A in neighbor and weigh. But their, weird, and either, Foreign, seize, neither, Leisure, forfeit, and height Are exceptions spelled right. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-before-e-except-after-me/389397/11 "2007-01-26T03:41:27Z")
I’ve always thought this isn’t so much a ‘rule’ as a completely made up bit of nonsense that is no help to anybody. ---
**Author:** ![picunurse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7bcc69/32.png) [@picunurse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/picunurse)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-before-e-except-after-me/389397/12 "2007-01-26T06:33:01Z")
[QUOTE=GuanoLad] I’ve always thought this isn’t so much a ‘rule’ as a completely made up bit of nonsense that is no help to anybody. [/QUOTE] So, you’re saying it should be “I before E, except after C, except when it isn’t.”? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-before-e-except-after-me/389397/13 "2007-01-26T06:39:28Z")
[QUOTE=glee] I was going to post sleigh and neigh, but your instructions contradict this. :eek: Did you mean ‘Extra points for words that are spelled with an “ **ei** ” but are pronounced “a”.’? [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] Did you mean ‘Extra points for words that are spelled with an “ei” but are pronounced “a”.’? No, because that adheres to the rule about using “ie” EXCEPT when pronounced as “a.” If it was spelled “ie” and pronounced as “a,” that would break the rule. I’m gonna make a list of these words for presentation to the teacher, who fortunately has a good sense of humor. ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-before-e-except-after-me/389397/14 "2007-01-26T06:50:45Z")
> [@](#): > > No, because that adheres to the rule about using “ie” EXCEPT when pronounced as “a.” If it was spelled “ie” and pronounced as “a,” that would break the rule. Of course I meant, that would FOLLOW the rule. ---
**Author:** ![TPWombat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbce88/32.png) [@TPWombat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TPWombat)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2007, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-before-e-except-after-me/389397/15 "2007-01-29T13:08:00Z")
I learned it as “I before E, excpt after C, when the sound is “ee””. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2007, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-before-e-except-after-me/389397/16 "2007-01-29T14:52:13Z")
Not really on topic, but the general ethic of teaching kids to question assumptions and to avoid slavishly applying rules is a good one. Quite useful in illustrating this (IMO) are those riddles that lead you deliberately up to the wrong answer; i.e. you ask them how to spell ‘most’, ‘boast’, ‘roast’, then ask them what you put in a toaster. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2007, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-before-e-except-after-me/389397/17 "2007-01-29T15:25:23Z")
Damnit, **Mangetout** , you completely got me on that one! I don’t get the idea that this is some outdated, authoritarian “rule” that ought to be questioned. It’s just a mnemonic intended to help kids spell! I never learned it in school (I learned it from a Charlie Brown special!) and it’s been very helpful to me. I repeat it to myself whenever I have to spell “receipt.” I mean, it’s not like teachers mark down those impudent students who spell “science,” “weird,” or “leisure” correctly. Rules are good; mechanical overapplication of rules is bad, and I’ve never heard of a teacher advocating overapplication of this rule (unlike lots of other teachers’ rules). ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2007, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-before-e-except-after-me/389397/18 "2007-01-29T15:34:16Z")
[QUOTE=Alan Smithee] Damnit, **Mangetout** , you completely got me on that one! [/QUOTE] Heh. Here’s another: A black man and a black woman have a black baby; his little nose is black, his toes are black; his cheeks are black and his chin is black. Everything about him is black. What colour are his teeth? ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2007, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-before-e-except-after-me/389397/19 "2007-01-29T18:46:42Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t get the idea that this is some outdated, authoritarian “rule” that ought to be questioned. It’s just a mnemonic intended to help kids spell! I never learned it in school (I learned it from a Charlie Brown special!) and it’s been very helpful to me. I repeat it to myself whenever I have to spell “receipt.” I mean, it’s not like teachers mark down those impudent students who spell “science,” “weird,” or “leisure” correctly. Rules are good; mechanical overapplication of rules is bad, and I’ve never heard of a teacher advocating overapplication of this rule (unlike lots of other teachers’ rules). This is true, and I don’t mean to imply that my son’s school is bad for teaching him a common spelling rule. (Sometimes they ARE bad, but this is not the reason why.) It is just a fun intellectual exercise that has as a side-benefit helping my son to appreciate how wonderfully rich, unexpected, and inconsistent English can be. And since he is naturally almost eerily obedient, it is good to encourage him to think outside the box. BTW I hadn’t thanked Alan Smithee for posting the great links. Loved the comic strip! ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2007, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-before-e-except-after-me/389397/20 "2007-01-29T19:17:17Z")
No prob! Glad you liked them. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-before-e-except-after-me/389397.md?page=2)