# I believe Jose Canseco **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 8, 2005, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-believe-jose-canseco/289071 "2005-02-08T22:46:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Othersider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/cab0a1/32.png) [@Othersider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Othersider)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2005, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-believe-jose-canseco/289071/41 "2005-02-09T08:16:16Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > And hell, batters cover their bats in mountains of pine tar before every AB. Buf it the pitcher gets some saliva on his ball he gets in a lot of trouble. That home run doesn’t count! No, wait, it does! :smack: 😃 ---
**Author:** ![if6was9](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e47c2d/32.png) [@if6was9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/if6was9)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2005, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-believe-jose-canseco/289071/42 "2005-02-09T08:19:13Z")
And that’s exactly what that POS is banking on you to do… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Snooooopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Snooooopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snooooopy)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2005, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-believe-jose-canseco/289071/43 "2005-02-09T09:38:11Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Big Ed Walsh was a spitballer and probably the best spitballer, but even still the Neyer James Guide to pitchers says his use of the spitter is probably at least somewhat exaggerated. A legal spitter, incidentally. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2005, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-believe-jose-canseco/289071/44 "2005-02-09T12:59:23Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > I’d like to poke in to say that I admire **Diogenes** for not dwelling on (or even mentioning!) the rumor that the book alleges that President Bush, while owner of the Rangers, “had to have known” that his players were shooting up. 😃 Not to mention giving **Reeder** credit (blech) for not having started yet another “Bushco” thread on the subject. The revamped anti-steroid rules in baseball are still a joke. And the home run record is still 61. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2005, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-believe-jose-canseco/289071/45 "2005-02-09T13:19:40Z")
I don’t think it’s even likely that steroids actually help you hit home runs. Batting is more about speed and vision than brute strength. Also, steroids help you work out longer and heal faster (in the short term), but don’t actually make you strong. The popular conception is that people pop a few pills, pop up to huge, then go out and hit dingers. The truth is fuzzier than that. After all, if it was easy as that, everyone would be hitting 60 home runs every year, since apparently everyone does steroids. However, I think there’s also a PR myth that steroids are taken by individual players as a choice, unbeknownst to coaches and management. My feeling is that, if it really is a widespread problem, then the coaches and mgmt know all about it and to some extent support it, at least by “looking away,” but maybe even helping make the drugs available. Am I paranoid? ---
**Author:** ![Rufus\_Xavier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eada6e/32.png) [@Rufus\_Xavier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rufus_Xavier)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2005, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-believe-jose-canseco/289071/46 "2005-02-09T16:08:03Z")
> [@F. U. Shakespeare](#): > > As one who took my screen name from Pete Rose’s comments to Bouton following the publication of _Ball Four_, I agree strongly with **Rufus** (who I assume is a pharmacist by his screen name?) Actually, you are way off base (heh). Though the initials of my screen name are, indeed, RX, my user name is in fact a reference to Schoolhouse Rock and the initials are meaningless. I’m not sure I understand people’s positions regarding the home run record. Are they saying that anyone who has hit more than 61 home runs in a season was using steroids, and therefore what they did shouldn’t count? Are they suggesting that we identify each and every player who ever used steroids and nullify the statistics they accumulated? Or should we only single out those individuals who set new records and nullify their accomplishments? And if so, why? ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2005, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-believe-jose-canseco/289071/47 "2005-02-09T16:48:13Z")
Personally, I think the home run record should still be 60. Ya know, there’s a difference between Canseco saying “80% of major leaguers use” and “I used with McGwire, Pudge and Rafeal Viagra”. One he’s just mis-estimating. I don’t think you need to bulk up like Hercules to enjoy the benefits of steroids either. See, that Raffy thing is where I see a problem even more than a Bonds, McGwire, Sosa thing. It means that just the “average” guys are using. They’re regularly working out with steroids as a part of the routine. It doesn’t suprise me that Juan Gon is named. It won’t surprise if they say that Bret Boone was using, that Jim Thome was using, that Frank Thomas was using. It wouldn’t suprise me if I heard that chumps like Gibbons on the O’s uses. He’s got big bulky forearms and biceps. You start getting the sense with some of the “defenders” that people think the only two people who ever used steroids were Jose Canseco and Ken Caminiti. I believe it’s totally widespread, and that Canseco is telling the truth about who he names. The “George Bush” thing may have been an attempt to sell books, but I actually believe that all owners know – on the level that us fans know – that it’s going on. I don’t think it incriminates Bush any more than it incriminates ME. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2005, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-believe-jose-canseco/289071/48 "2005-02-09T16:51:52Z")
> [@Rufus Xavier](#): > > I’m not sure I understand people’s positions regarding the home run record. Are they saying that anyone who has hit more than 61 home runs in a season was using steroids, and therefore what they did shouldn’t count? That’s what I’m saying, yes. > [@](#): > > Are they suggesting that we identify each and every player who ever used steroids and nullify the statistics they accumulated? Or should we only single out those individuals who set new records and nullify their accomplishments? And if so, why? It isn’t possible to identify everyone who was using steroids and when. For the most part, MLB’s records have been irreversably corrupted and there’s nothing we can do about. For something as sacred as the homerun records, though, I think we can delete them on the grounds that they were achieved illegitimately and reset the record to 61. I also realize that this will never, ever happen. So when I say the record is 61 to _me_, that’s all I really mean. I think Maris, Aaron and Ruth deserve better. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2005, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-believe-jose-canseco/289071/49 "2005-02-09T16:54:03Z")
Maris took amphetamines. ---
**Author:** ![pkd88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2bfe46/32.png) [@pkd88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkd88)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2005, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-believe-jose-canseco/289071/50 "2005-02-09T17:21:50Z")
Games tainted is one issue and there is more to this then homerun records. What about a young pitcher, who is not cheating, giving up a homerun to somene who is cheating? It doesn’t even have to be a home run, maybe it is a single that was hit just hard enough to go through the infield. Maybe he got sent back down and loses his chance at his lifetime dream. How many players have lost their careers because a teammate cheats and they can’t get a fair chance in spring training? ---
**Author:** ![Mullinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@Mullinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mullinator)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2005, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-believe-jose-canseco/289071/51 "2005-02-09T17:37:52Z")
> [@pkd88](#): > > Games tainted is one issue and there is more to this then homerun records. > > What about a young pitcher, who is not cheating, giving up a homerun to somene who is cheating? It doesn’t even have to be a home run, maybe it is a single that was hit just hard enough to go through the infield. Maybe he got sent back down and loses his chance at his lifetime dream. > > How many players have lost their careers because a teammate cheats and they can’t get a fair chance in spring training? I won’t disagree with the concept that a cheating player could do something in a game to make a rookie pitcher look bad and lead to him being sent back down again. But, once back down in the minors, that player has every opportunity to perform at a AAA level and earn his way back. If he demonstrates some modicum of skill, it’s most likely he will eventually be called back up. I would think that holds true even moreso in this day and age of salary cap limitations. A decent, cheap, young substitute for an expensive, underperforming veteran frees up a lot of salary room to use elsewhere. As for Canseco, I view it pretty much like a political speech. There are kernels of truth (McGwire, Giambi used steroids) that drive a bombastic, over-reaching conclusion (I shot them up, a bunch of other people used, Bush knew, 80% cheat) in order to reach a goal (sell more books, make some money to cover my expenses). At the same time, the home run record is what it is. No record was broken due to the use of anything that was illegal in baseball at the time. If you worked hard you could find a qualifier to disregard most record holders (steroids, amphetamines, color line, expansion year, pitching mound height, dead ball, rules changes). We may not be happy with the results, but unless cheating against already established baseball rules can be proven, the record should exist. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2005, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-believe-jose-canseco/289071/52 "2005-02-09T17:53:59Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > I don’t think it’s even likely that steroids actually help you hit home runs. Batting is more about speed and vision than brute strength. Also, steroids help you work out longer and heal faster (in the short term), but don’t actually make you strong. The fact that steroids let you train longer and harder will allow you become stronger. And it damn well makes a difference. A ball that would have gone 400 feet and be caught at the wall now goes 420 and becomes a dinger. This is what taints Bonds’ numbers. And McGwire’s etc. Steroids won’t turn me into a slugger since I don’t have the raw talent (eye-hand co-ordination). But the guys with the raw tools surely benefit. ---
**Author:** ![pkd88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2bfe46/32.png) [@pkd88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkd88)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2005, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-believe-jose-canseco/289071/53 "2005-02-09T18:19:04Z")
> [@Mullinator](#): > > I won’t disagree with the concept that a cheating player could do something in a game to make a rookie pitcher look bad and lead to him being sent back down again. But, once back down in the minors, that player has every opportunity to perform at a AAA level and earn his way back. If he demonstrates some modicum of skill, it’s most likely he will eventually be called back up. I would think that holds true even moreso in this day and age of salary cap limitations. A decent, cheap, young substitute for an expensive, underperforming veteran frees up a lot of salary room to use elsewhere. The problem is that is say 10% of the batters are on steroids, and you are an up and coming pitcher who has to face this 10%. Your trial period is short. Another factor is salary. Even your established players have their salary based on their performance. More money is spent on those who cheat then those who don’t. Teams have budget’s so it is a double problem. You pay more to the cheater and that removes potential money from the amount available to the non-cheater. One team filled with steroid users vs a team of non steroid users. Is this a fair game? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2005, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-believe-jose-canseco/289071/54 "2005-02-09T18:58:37Z")
**Airman** , don’t get me wrong–I’m not rabid on the subject, and I’m not particularly fashed about juicing at all. I think that cheating of any sort ultimately hurts the game as a whole. If the use of substance X is against the rules, it should not be done, period. I don’t care who it hurts, it’s cheating. Now, if it’s not against the rules, fine. Pop them greenies and smear on the cream. But if it’s ruled illegal, stop. Period. It’s really only the integrity of the rules that I care about. Not McGwire’s pythons or Bonds’ 72 longballs. ---
**Author:** ![Rufus\_Xavier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eada6e/32.png) [@Rufus\_Xavier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rufus_Xavier)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2005, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-believe-jose-canseco/289071/55 "2005-02-09T19:28:13Z")
> [@pkd88](#): > > More money is spent on those who cheat then those who don’t. Huh? Here’s the top 16 baseball salaries (excluding Mo Vaughn and pitchers), 2004: Manny Ramirez, 22.5 mil A-Rod, 22.0 mil Carlos Delgado, 19.7 mil Derek Jeter, 18.6 mil Barry Bonds, 18.0 mil Shawn Green, 16.7 mil Mike Piazza, 16.1 mil Jeff Bagwell, 16.0 mil Sammy Sosa, 16.0 mil Chipper Jones, 15.3 mil Magglio Ordonez, 14.0 mil Gary Sheffield, 13.0 mil Larry Walker, 12.7 mil Andruw Jones, 12.5 mil Ken Griffey, 12.5 mil Richard Hidalgo, 12.5 mil I see a couple of names on this list that have been linked to rumours of steroid use, but you’d have a hard time convincing a large number of people that twelve or thirteen of these guys are regular users of steroids. ---
**Author:** ![pkd88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2bfe46/32.png) [@pkd88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkd88)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2005, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-believe-jose-canseco/289071/56 "2005-02-09T19:52:05Z")
> [@Rufus Xavier](#): > > Huh? Here’s the top 16 baseball salaries (excluding Mo Vaughn and pitchers), 2004: > > Manny Ramirez, 22.5 mil > A-Rod, 22.0 mil > Carlos Delgado, 19.7 mil > Derek Jeter, 18.6 mil > Barry Bonds, 18.0 mil > Shawn Green, 16.7 mil > Mike Piazza, 16.1 mil > Jeff Bagwell, 16.0 mil > Sammy Sosa, 16.0 mil > Chipper Jones, 15.3 mil > Magglio Ordonez, 14.0 mil > Gary Sheffield, 13.0 mil > Larry Walker, 12.7 mil > Andruw Jones, 12.5 mil > Ken Griffey, 12.5 mil > Richard Hidalgo, 12.5 mil > > I see a couple of names on this list that have been linked to rumours of steroid use, but you’d have a hard time convincing a large number of people that twelve or thirteen of these guys are regular users of steroids. Of course I am not being specific, just generalizing… But since you made the list 🙂 If Barry Bonds is cheating: - Based on his home run record while cheating, he is paid a lot of money out of the team budget. How much less money is available to an honest player on his team? - How many minor league prospects don’t get a chance to come up to make big league money because he is cheating? - How many minor league pitchers stats have been negatively effected by facing him while he is cheating? How many of these get sent down. - How many major league players have to compete in arbitration with his stats while he is cheating? I am not gonna argue, if you don’t believe it has an imptact, fine. My point is that these players do more then affect their personal stats. Asterisks in the record book maybe important, but there is more at stake here. This is just my theory on fair play. ---
**Author:** ![Rufus\_Xavier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eada6e/32.png) [@Rufus\_Xavier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rufus_Xavier)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2005, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-believe-jose-canseco/289071/57 "2005-02-09T20:09:05Z")
> [@pkd88](#): > > Of course I am not being specific, just generalizing… > But since you made the list 🙂 > > If Barry Bonds is cheating: > > - Based on his home run record while cheating, he is paid a lot of money out of the team budget. How much less money is available to an honest player on his team? > - How many minor league prospects don’t get a chance to come up to make big league money because he is cheating? > - How many minor league pitchers stats have been negatively effected by facing him while he is cheating? How many of these get sent down. > - How many major league players have to compete in arbitration with his stats while he is cheating? > > I am not gonna argue, if you don’t believe it has an imptact, fine. My point is that these players do more then affect their personal stats. Asterisks in the record book maybe important, but there is more at stake here. > > This is just my theory on fair play. I won’t argue against the position that a player who is cheating has an unfair advantage over a player who is not. I suggest, however, that we leave money out of the discussion. After all, how much extra money did the Giants make from Barry Bonds’ extraordinary feats of baseball skill the last several seasons? Enough to pay an ‘honest’ player extra? I think so. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2005, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-believe-jose-canseco/289071/58 "2005-02-09T20:12:33Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > Maris took amphetamines. DiMaggio drank coffee. He was also a pusher (spokesman for _Mr. Coffee_). :eek: My only source for this is _Ball Four_, but according to Bouton greenies (amphetamines) weren’t a real performance-enhancer, as pitchers at least were prone to think they were heaving bullets at the plate when they weren’t, and got hammered as a result. And greenies didn’t pump up muscles and turn warning-track flies into home runs. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2005, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-believe-jose-canseco/289071/59 "2005-02-10T14:33:24Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > And greenies didn’t pump up muscles and turn warning-track flies into home runs. No, but interestingly enough modern baseball architecture turned home runs into warning track flies. I’m not old enough to remember when Yankee Stadium’s right field wall was 296 feet away from the plate, but c’mon, guys. How many dingers have gone out of Yankee Stadium because of that extra 30 feet? How much did Babe Ruth/ Mickey Mantle/ Roger Maris benefit from having chip shot home runs? How many dingers would Ted Williams have hit with that as his home park? How many homers would Joe DiMaggio have hit at Fenway? With all of the changes in baseball, the only comparison to the old game is the base and mound layout. That’s why I don’t think records are tarnished by this sort of stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2005, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-believe-jose-canseco/289071/60 "2005-02-10T14:47:42Z")
I don’t even care if they used 'roids. But what ticks me the most is the attitude and the arrogance with which they approached everyone, and then how the ‘fans’ --many of them-- defended these guys. Put me on the list of people who was never fooled. You know, just to show how ignorant people are: The WWE (wrestling) league is so filled with 'roid junkies (and growth hormone junkies) that it amazes me. Some of these guys are so juiced up that they look almost like science experiments on the SciFi channel. But because Vince McMahon got into some legal trouble with the distribution of steroids in the mid-90’s, people say that is the reason they know these wrestlers are on 'roids! Please, maybe we should pit all the ignorant people who look at all the symptoms of a problem and then just discount it out of hand. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-believe-jose-canseco/289071.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-believe-jose-canseco/289071.md?page=4)