# I believe that Jesus was a big ol' fake myth. Can I still be a Christian?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-believe-that-jesus-was-a-big-ol-fake-myth-can-i-still-be-a-christian/296505
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [March 27, 2005, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-believe-that-jesus-was-a-big-ol-fake-myth-can-i-still-be-a-christian/296505 "2005-03-27T22:44:55Z")
**Posts on this page:** 13
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)
#### Post date: [March 28, 2005, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-believe-that-jesus-was-a-big-ol-fake-myth-can-i-still-be-a-christian/296505/21 "2005-03-28T15:03:33Z")
I think the OP would be better suited for [this]([http://www.atheistsforjesus.com/](http://www.atheistsforjesus.com/)) than to try and wedge himself into the Christian world.
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### Author:  [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup)
#### Post date: [March 28, 2005, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-believe-that-jesus-was-a-big-ol-fake-myth-can-i-still-be-a-christian/296505/22 "2005-03-28T15:27:28Z")
Some famous wag once said that calling yourself a ham sandwich didn’t make you one.
Furthermore, you can call yourself “Superman” all day long. You can wear the tights and the cape and everything.
And you’ll only really find out if you were right the day you decide to commute by leaping from the Empire State Building.
If all you’re asking is “Can I call myself a Christian?” I would say that the answer is “yes and no.”
Simply put:
In the “I only eat vegetables, therefore I am a vegetarian” sense, then sure, you might, semantically, be able to apply the Christian label to yourself. But you still wouldn’t be able to join the “Black Gay Overweight Diabetic HIV-positive Albino Acoholic Clinically Depressed Pre-Op Transsexual Double-Amputee Association of Southeastern Tobago,” because eating the vegetables is only a small part of what that group does.
In the same way, you can follow Christ’s teachings and use adherence to those practices to call yourself a Christian, but it takes more than that to receive communion at a Catholic church, and I’d imagine you have to do more than just be nice to people in order to be fully part of the community of another congregation.
Remember, a church isn’t a building. It’s a community of people who share as part of their lives a certain set of beliefs. And while you COULD fake that, I suppose, why _would_ you? It seems like a lot of lying just to get a cracker and a shot of wine. And maybe that doesn’t mean much to you, but where I come from, it’s a very big deal, especially since I am a devout Catholic and am forbidden by Church teachings from taking Communion, and to have some joker do on a lark something that only my conscience keeps me from doing would be more than a bit insulting. I cna start a thread on that as a microcosm of our belief and go from there if you want, but, to answer your question semantically, “yes and no.”
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### Author:  [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)
#### Post date: [March 28, 2005, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-believe-that-jesus-was-a-big-ol-fake-myth-can-i-still-be-a-christian/296505/23 "2005-03-28T17:34:21Z")
> [@Twoflower](#):
>
> Seems to me that before you could accept the idea of a savior, you need to have some idea what you’re being saved from.
This is an excellent point. The obvious answer is Hell.
But it’s clear to me from my Christian background that Christianity considers suffering to be part and parcel of the human condition. Understandable, as back in those days, poverty, famine, drought, and military oppression where What’s for Breakfast. People suffered a great deal, and were desperate for something better. Christianity not only offered a way out, but also offered it first to those worst off (remember who shall inherit the Earth).
The message of a Kingdom of Paradise was no doubt a great ray of hope to people who had none. I think that this is a large part of Christianity’s appeal.
But Christianity does not have a lock on offering an escape from suffering. Confucianism, Buddhism, and Taoism do as well, and yet they don’t really offer a supernatural afterlife as part of the deal. (At least as I understand them). If I follow the teachings of Confucius, Buddha, or Lao-Tse, I would be considered a Confucianist, Buddhist, or Taoist, correct? And I would not have to believe in a magical sky pixie to be so, right?
But what if I decided that the teachings of Christ resonated more with me? Why can I not claim the status of Christian? Do I really have to buy into the hocus pocus to become a member of the club?
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### Author:  [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)
#### Post date: [March 28, 2005, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-believe-that-jesus-was-a-big-ol-fake-myth-can-i-still-be-a-christian/296505/24 "2005-03-28T18:01:42Z")
> [@Polycarp](#):
>
> I can’t imagine why you’d want to attach yourself to a fictional concept, no matter how wonderful you think him to be. I have a lot of respect for Gandalf the Grey and for Valentine Michael Smith, among others, but not an iota of belief in them as anything but well-crafted fictional characters. I might even consider it appropriate to use their teachings in real life (_notes wryly how many times he’s quoted Gandalf in capital punishment discussions_). But to attach myself to them would be a supremely irrational act.
Why come?
Gandalf is certainly the brainchild of one author, to be sure, but what of someone that is the product of more tradition than authorship? Let’s take Arthur, for example.
Clearly Arthur was at best an amalgam of less spectacular RL people mixed with mythological figures. Quite fictional, but in my opinion no less compelling and complex than Mr. Of Nazareth. And certainly real to the people of the Middle Ages.
Arthur had a great influence on the social and military policies of England for a millenium. Would his historicity have made such policies any more or less real? Would he have inspired the knights of the day (no pun intended) any more or less?
If I could take a mythological figure and gain insight, inspiration, and direction from that figure, why should it matter whether he ever found expression in flesh? In fact, there is some (controversial) evidence that early versions of Jesus were that of a spiritual being rather than a flesh being. Were the people that worshipped the spiritual version any less Christian than their later counterparts?
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### Author:  [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup)
#### Post date: [March 28, 2005, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-believe-that-jesus-was-a-big-ol-fake-myth-can-i-still-be-a-christian/296505/25 "2005-03-28T18:53:03Z")
But what do you hope to GAIN from all this?
You don’t believe in an afterlife, so it’s not for that.
You can be nice to people without slapping a name on yourself, so it’s not for that.
I can’t see anyone wanting to assume the actual responsibilities of being a Christian just so they can call themselves one.
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### Author:  [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)
#### Post date: [March 28, 2005, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-believe-that-jesus-was-a-big-ol-fake-myth-can-i-still-be-a-christian/296505/26 "2005-03-28T18:58:40Z")
> [@tdn](#):
>
> But Christianity does not have a lock on offering an escape from suffering. Confucianism, Buddhism, and Taoism do as well, and yet they don’t really offer a supernatural afterlife as part of the deal. (At least as I understand them). If I follow the teachings of Confucius, Buddha, or Lao-Tse, I would be considered a Confucianist, Buddhist, or Taoist, correct? And I would not have to believe in a magical sky pixie to be so, right?
>
> But what if I decided that the teachings of Christ resonated more with me? Why can I not claim the status of Christian? Do I really have to buy into the hocus pocus to become a member of the club?
You misunderstand the asian religions. They do not offer “salvation” per se; rather, their approach is much more along the lines of “acceptance.” Your suffering is not relieved by an outside force, so much as overcome from within.
Think of it in this sense: All religions more or less agree that we desire things that we don’t or can’t have. For eastern religions the goal is the cessation of desire; you overcome your longings and therefore come to be at peace with the universe. You can follow those teachings without believing in the supernatural because theose belief systems do not require any diety.
But Western religions teach that the afterlife of the elect is the fulfillment of our desires (i.e. streets of gold, 70 virgins, etc; which are of course seen as metaphorical by all but the most obtuse fundamentalists, but which are taken to be literal in regards to the _nature_ of the heavenly experience). But the essential point is that that it is ONLY by divine action that that fulfillment occurs. What causes that Divine action to occur is another issue; but the point is that _by definition_, the fulfillment of our deepest desires \*must \* come from God.
Without believing that Christ was a savior in some real sense, all you’re left with is Christ-as-a-good-teacher. Which is a fine thing to believe in, but is not Christianity.
Although why I bother saying all this I don’t know. The dismissive tone with which you regard the “hocus pocus” which Jesus beleived in makes me VERY suspicious of the sincerity of your motives.
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### Author:  [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)
#### Post date: [March 28, 2005, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-believe-that-jesus-was-a-big-ol-fake-myth-can-i-still-be-a-christian/296505/27 "2005-03-28T19:20:14Z")
> [@furt](#):
>
> Although why I bother saying all this I don’t know. The dismissive tone with which you regard the “hocus pocus” which Jesus beleived in makes me VERY suspicious of the sincerity of your motives.
I’ll address the rest of your post later, but for now – what are these motives of which you speak?
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### Author:  [@CJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CJJ)
#### Post date: [March 28, 2005, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-believe-that-jesus-was-a-big-ol-fake-myth-can-i-still-be-a-christian/296505/28 "2005-03-28T20:12:29Z")
> [@tdn](#):
>
> If I could take a mythological figure and gain insight, inspiration, and direction from that figure, why should it matter whether he ever found expression in flesh? In fact, there is some (controversial) evidence that early versions of Jesus were that of a spiritual being rather than a flesh being. Were the people that worshipped the spiritual version any less Christian than their later counterparts?
Using a mythological figure for insight, inspiration and direction is certainly possible, but the fact that such a character didn’t exist in reality severely limits their power to serve as a guide for life because their personal beliefs were not tested by reality.
I think that most people eventually adopt a belief system because it works; they judge it against some personal criteria, using experience to alter it over time. Following the example of another is a useful shortcut in developing personal beliefs–if anything it gives you a point to start from–but I’m distinguishing this from the act of adopting a belief as a guide to solving future life problems, and I think trust in that belief can only come from experience.
You can use the inferred beliefs of a fictional character as a starting point, but of course these depends on the motives of the writer, motives which likely do not coincide with your desire to find a guide to life (even in cases where this is the writer’s intent, at best you can say they’re untested beliefs, except in the case of autobiography).
You may be on better ground with traditional figures like King Arthur who are built from a consensus of their society’s values. But a wholly mythical figure–as opposed to one created by a single known author–is simply a rehash of prevailing beliefs. That doesn’t mean they can’t inspire, but I’ve found that the figures considered most inspirational were those that held views contrary to their social norms.
To be a Christian, it seems essential to me that one believes its tenets were actually lived by an historic person Jesus Christ. However, the question of the “historical Jesus” is separate from the theological meaning of his life; I think the original poster is wondering whether or not this theological interpretation is also essential to Christianity. The fact that the “theological Jesus” appears in the Gospels has traditionally meant that it is also essential, but this view has waned (somewhat) with modern deconstruction of the New Testament.
The exact relationship of the historical and theological Christ was certainly a point of controversy among early Christians. Some gnostics emphasized the spiritual of theological side of Christ to the point of treating Christ’s historic life as a kind of shared illusion. But such a view was (we surmise) never really popular; one can blame (a la the DaVinci code) an active suppression by the Church, or one can take the more reasonable path that people considered the historic fact of Christ’s life to be essential to his message.
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### Author:  [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)
#### Post date: [March 28, 2005, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-believe-that-jesus-was-a-big-ol-fake-myth-can-i-still-be-a-christian/296505/29 "2005-03-28T20:21:22Z")
> [@tdn](#):
>
> But what if I decided that the teachings of Christ resonated more with me? Why can I not claim the status of Christian? Do I really have to buy into the hocus pocus to become a member of the club?
But, again, we’ll reach the questions of “who’s asking?” and “why are they asking?”
There are many people who call themselves Christians because they follow the teachings that are commonly attributed to Christ, though they don’t believe he ever existed, much less in the divinity of that figure.
And the definition of Christian has been stretched everywhere from “people who in some way associate themselves with Jesus Christ” (which the OP’s hypothetical would fall under) to someone who follows a strict creed (which the OP would not fall under).
As for me? I tend to be egocentric - and use the label “Christian” for people whose beliefs are the same as mine in matters I consider essential and similar enough to mine in matters I consider important. (From what I’ve observed, many people who call themselves Christian draw the same boundaries around themselves. The area of those boundaries varies.) This does not mean that I know what God thinks of either group. But there are times and situations where it is useful to draw that line. And so, if I knew you didn’t believe, I would not think of you as a Christian.
However, if you want to call yourself a Christian, I certainly would not stop you.
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### Author:  [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)
#### Post date: [March 29, 2005, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-believe-that-jesus-was-a-big-ol-fake-myth-can-i-still-be-a-christian/296505/30 "2005-03-29T01:50:03Z")
> [@tdn](#):
>
> I’ve been sort of tossing this thought around my head for a couple of years now.
>
> Let’s say that I find no historical evidence for the existance of Jesus. Let’s assume that I believe, with all my heart and all my mind that no such person ever walked the Earth. Let’s even go one step further and assume that I am a devout atheist.
>
> Can I still be a Christian? Of course, it would be a no-brainer to imagine that I still like the stories, or still try to be as Jesus-like as possible, or of course still attend church.
>
> But would this make me a Christian? Could I theoretically accept the _idea_ of Him into my heart? Could I accept the _idea_ of Him as my lord and savior?
>
> Let’s even go one last step and assume that I will never believe in the concept of an immortal soul. And I will never change my mind on any of these “facts.” What would I need to do to be considered a Christian (short of deceiving others)? Would it even be possible? How?
You can be a Christian if you follow the teachings of Jesus.
It is ok to be an atheist if you wish, just follow the teachings.
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### Author:  [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)
#### Post date: [March 29, 2005, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-believe-that-jesus-was-a-big-ol-fake-myth-can-i-still-be-a-christian/296505/31 "2005-03-29T01:53:05Z")
> [@alaska56](#):
>
> Well I am not sure how this applies but it seems relavant.
>
> I was dicussing with my sister about Christianity (I am a full blooded athiest and she is the polar oppisite) She tole me there is only two ways to get into heaven. Or in your case please God. One was to accept Jesus Christ into your heart as you Lord and Saviour and the other is to not sin. Apparently its ok to not belive in Jesus and or any of the Bible for that matter so long as you dont sin you will be accepted by God. But and here is the kicker if you have already sined to bad you have to belive in Jesus and ask for forgiveness.
>
> There may be a way around it though. I am not sure but if you can figure a way to belive in him for just a little but and ask for forgiveness you can then stop beliveing and just not sin anymore. I think Jesus has to stick with his forgiveness. I dont think he is allowed to renig on a tecnicality.
>
> I hope this works for you or applies in some way.
I think you misunderstood your sister badly, or else, she misunderstood. I know of no Christian church with doctrine such as you describe.
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### Author:  [@fifty-six](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fifty-six)
#### Post date: [March 29, 2005, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-believe-that-jesus-was-a-big-ol-fake-myth-can-i-still-be-a-christian/296505/32 "2005-03-29T03:28:43Z")
> [@lekatt](#):
>
> I think you misunderstood your sister badly, or else, she misunderstood. I know of no Christian church with doctrine such as you describe.
Maby i did. I dont go to church or belive in any other way.
I just understood that you can get to heaven through Jesus or by not sinning. And that Jesus was here to save us from our sins. If you have no sin then you have no need in Jesus. Not beliving in him I dont think counts as a sin. And “IF” christians belive in this path as a way to heaven and you belive it to then I suppose you could be a christian.
The extra I added about temorarly beliving in him to get forgivenss was my own mokery of the church, but I dont know it could work. You cant unforgive someone can you? Or rather can Jesus unforgive?
Thanks for correcting me if i am wrong.
I make no claims to special knowledge of the or any church or the tecnicalities of heavens admission policy.
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### Author:  [@Imasquare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Imasquare)
#### Post date: [March 31, 2005, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-believe-that-jesus-was-a-big-ol-fake-myth-can-i-still-be-a-christian/296505/33 "2005-03-31T03:58:13Z")
Such a silly question. It’s similar to ‘I’m not attracted to other men. Can I still be gay?’
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