# I can murder someone in Yellowstone and I can't be tried for it? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 8, 2017, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-can-murder-someone-in-yellowstone-and-i-cant-be-tried-for-it/781678 "2017-03-08T05:15:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-can-murder-someone-in-yellowstone-and-i-cant-be-tried-for-it/781678/1 "2017-03-08T05:15:18Z")
This seems totally unbelievable but I thought I’d ask. [Due To a Legal Loophole, There’s a Murder Zone in Yellowstone National Park.](http://nerdist.com/due-to-a-legal-loophole-theres-a-murder-zone-in-yellowstone-national-park/) > [@](#): > > As a national park, Yellowstone is federal land and as such falls under federal jurisdiction which means crimes committed there are dealt with in a certain manner. Article III of the Constitution requires criminal trials to be held in the state where the crime was committed and Sixth Amendment entitles a defendant of a federal crime the right to a trial by jury from the state and district it was committed in. The only problem with all this is that Yellowstone park stretches across parts of Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming, and Congress put the entirety of the park under Wyoming’s federal district. > > That means there’s an uninhabited 50 square mile portion of the park that falls outside Wyoming state lines and makes it quite literally the wild west. Since the area falls under federal jurisdiction, crimes committed in the dead zone that are serious enough to warrant a trial by jury would be impossible since it’s uninhabited Idaho land that technically falls under Wyoming’s jurisdiction. > > Kalt told Vice that before he published his paper back in 2004, he sent copies to lawmakers with simple suggestions on how to close the loophole but to this day, there still hasn’t been anything done to fix the problem. Responses have varied from general “it’s not so simple, we’re looking into it” type responses to some lawmakers insisting any serious crimes committed in the area would still fall under the state’s jurisdiction despite [evidence to the contrary.](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/16/24) > > So for now, there’s still a little spot in the wilds of Wyoming (err… Idaho technically) that you can witness the majesty of nature, reconnect with the indomitable spirit of man, and probably get away with murder. Eagerly awaiting a definitive reply. There are a few people I know that I feel could benefit from a trip to Yellowstone with me. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-can-murder-someone-in-yellowstone-and-i-cant-be-tried-for-it/781678/2 "2017-03-08T05:28:31Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Eagerly awaiting a definitive reply. There are a few people I know that I feel could benefit from a trip to Yellowstone with me. 🙂 You never thought I’d read that post, did you, Aldi? Well, yeah, turns out I’m a Doper! AND I’m going to be busy next weekend – get someone else to go on your “backpacking trip”. Who’s next on your list, bub? “C’mon, it’ll be fun. Let’s share the majesty of the wild!”… yeah, right. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-can-murder-someone-in-yellowstone-and-i-cant-be-tried-for-it/781678/3 "2017-03-08T05:45:14Z")
The law that was quoted says _“Nothing in this Act shall be construed to forbid the service in the park of any civil or criminal process of any court having jurisdiction in the States of Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming.”_ That seems to close any loopholes to me. ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-can-murder-someone-in-yellowstone-and-i-cant-be-tried-for-it/781678/4 "2017-03-08T09:38:44Z")
It was always a dead claim. Such an Act does not override the constitution, so if the Act was in conflict with constitution, then the constitution would be the guiding principle. It doesn’t make sense to say that they couldn’t be prosecuted because of the constitution. if the constitution says the trial had to occur in state X, with a jury from state X, then state X has full criminal jurisdiction. Federal acts simply cannot move the criminal jurisdiction from one state to another, hence the reason that the issue is even handled carefully to say the federal district is taken to be Wyoming. Whatever can be moved to Wyoming federal courts is hence moved to wyoming federal courts. This certainly does not say that the any part of the park is changed from being Montana or Idaho to being Wyoming, it just says the court to attend for federal matters (subject to the constitution) is the Wyoming court ! That court will still consider the state borders with the idea of there being the Montana portion and the Idaho portion. The change is that the case runs in Wyoming. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-can-murder-someone-in-yellowstone-and-i-cant-be-tried-for-it/781678/5 "2017-03-08T11:38:43Z")
You can potentially kill someone in Yellowstone and not get tried for it by disappearing the body in one of those hot tubs from hell they have there, because nobody is going to find it later. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-can-murder-someone-in-yellowstone-and-i-cant-be-tried-for-it/781678/6 "2017-03-08T11:54:08Z")
This ranks alongside the “fact” that in Chester (or Hereford), a person is permitted to shoot a Welshman with a bow and arrow, as long as they are inside the city walls after midnight. I wonder if other countries have this kind of urban legend that says that under some circumstances and in a particular place, murder, would be legal? ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-can-murder-someone-in-yellowstone-and-i-cant-be-tried-for-it/781678/7 "2017-03-08T12:39:41Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > This ranks alongside the “fact” that in Chester (or Hereford), a person is permitted to shoot a Welshman with a bow and arrow, as long as they are inside the city walls after midnight. This isn’t an urban legend, it’s an actual issue that has been written about in a paper by a law professor: > **[The Perfect Crime](https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=691642)** > > This article argues that there is a 50-square-mile swath of Idaho in which one might be able to commit felonies with impunity. This is because of the intersecti Now the people above might be right that there’s no real issue and Wyoming would do the trial, I have no idea, but at least one law professor thinks congress should bother to take action to “close the loophole”. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-can-murder-someone-in-yellowstone-and-i-cant-be-tried-for-it/781678/8 "2017-03-08T14:22:01Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > This ranks alongside the “fact” that in Chester (or Hereford), a person is permitted to shoot a Welshman with a bow and arrow, as long as they are inside the city walls after midnight. > > I wonder if other countries have this kind of urban legend that says that under some circumstances and in a particular place, murder, would be legal? There’s a bit of a difference between a urban legends about elephant leash laws and an actual scholarly article about a jurisdictional oversight published in a law journal. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-can-murder-someone-in-yellowstone-and-i-cant-be-tried-for-it/781678/9 "2017-03-08T14:35:11Z")
> [@Isilder](#): > > It was always a dead claim. Such an Act does not override the constitution, so if the Act was in conflict with constitution, then the constitution would be the guiding principle. > > … I see what you did there, but I’m wondering if that’s a term of art. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-can-murder-someone-in-yellowstone-and-i-cant-be-tried-for-it/781678/10 "2017-03-08T14:37:41Z")
I’m not seeing what the problem with Yellowstone is. There are many circumstances where both the Feds and a state can try a person for crimes arising from a single action. After negotiating who goes first, they try the person according to their own procedures in their own courts. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-can-murder-someone-in-yellowstone-and-i-cant-be-tried-for-it/781678/11 "2017-03-08T14:41:18Z")
Read up on [Cary Staner](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cary_Stayner). ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-can-murder-someone-in-yellowstone-and-i-cant-be-tried-for-it/781678/12 "2017-03-08T15:03:11Z")
[**How would you die if you “fell” into Old Faithful?**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=821062) ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-can-murder-someone-in-yellowstone-and-i-cant-be-tried-for-it/781678/13 "2017-03-08T16:27:12Z")
The law professor is making an unstated assumption that the Sixth Amendment’s reference to “an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed” necessarily means that the _individual jurors_ must all live in both the district and the state. I see no authority for that interpretation. In other words, it seems to me that the Amendment would be satisfied by trial in the District of Wyoming before a jury selected from a pool of jurors drawn from both the state of Idaho and the district of Wyoming. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-can-murder-someone-in-yellowstone-and-i-cant-be-tried-for-it/781678/14 "2017-03-08T16:32:33Z")
Why would the Idaho jurors have to live within the boundaries of Yellowstone? In every state I’ve lived in a juror can come from anywhere in the county. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-can-murder-someone-in-yellowstone-and-i-cant-be-tried-for-it/781678/15 "2017-03-08T16:39:37Z")
In Federal court, jurors typically have to come from the Federal district in which the trial is being held. Wyoming, Idaho and Montana are not very populous states, and thus each constitutes a single Federal district: > **[United States District Court for the District of Wyoming](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_District_Court_for_the_District_of_Wyoming)** > > The United States District Court for the District of Wyoming (in case citations, D. Wyo.) is the federal district court whose jurisdiction comprises the state of Wyoming and those portions of Yellowstone National Park situated in Montana and Idaho; it is the only federal court district that includes portions of more than one state.\[a\] Law professor Brian C. Kalt has argued that it may be impossible to impanel a jury in compliance with the Vicinage Clause of the Sixth Amendment to the United S Ap... > **[United States District Court for the District of Idaho](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_District_Court_for_the_District_of_Idaho)** > > The United States District Court for the District of Idaho (in case citations, D. Idaho) is the Federal district court whose jurisdiction comprises the state of Idaho (except for the part of the state within Yellowstone National Park, which is under the jurisdiction of the United States District Court for the District of Wyoming). Court is held in Boise, Coeur d'Alene, and Pocatello. Cases from the District of Idaho are appealed to the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit (e The U... > **[United States District Court for the District of Montana](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_District_Court_for_the_District_of_Montana)** > > The United States District Court for the District of Montana (in case citations, D. Mont.) is the United States District Court whose jurisdiction is the state of Montana (except the part of the state within Yellowstone National Park, which is under the jurisdiction of the United States District Court for the District of Wyoming). The court is located in Billings, Butte, Great Falls, Helena and Missoula. > Cases from the District of Montana are appealed to the United States Court of Appeals for th... ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-can-murder-someone-in-yellowstone-and-i-cant-be-tried-for-it/781678/16 "2017-03-08T16:40:02Z")
The notion that there could be a “murder zone” is ludicrous and clearly not the intent of any legislation. The law professor is hairsplitting into a ridiculous conclusion. In actual fact, there have been murders in Yellowstone. The courts dealt with it. I don’t have the time/energy to research a bunch of cites for this but I’m sure it could be googled or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-can-murder-someone-in-yellowstone-and-i-cant-be-tried-for-it/781678/17 "2017-03-08T16:40:45Z")
So you are accused of murder that took place in the Montana section of the park. You could file a motion that the case be transferred to Montana District Court, if it was granted, you have waived any objection to the prosecution in that Court, since it was your idea. They could find jurors from Montana, so the 6th amendment isn’t a problem. Article III of the Constitution only requires " such Trial shall be held in the State where the said Crimes shall have been committed," so no problem there since you’re in Montana for your trial. The only problem, if there is one, is the statute that says all of the park is part of the Wyoming District. You could argue that that law is unconstitutional as applied to you, and it would not be enforced. So, you’re going to get tried in Montana. You could make a motion to dismiss, claiming \*no \*District Court could properly hear your case. That motion would be denied. Judges are not \*completely \*result driven, but there is no way they wouldn’t find an argument that allows your prosecution. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-can-murder-someone-in-yellowstone-and-i-cant-be-tried-for-it/781678/18 "2017-03-08T16:44:20Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > The law professor is making an unstated assumption that the Sixth Amendment’s reference to “an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed” necessarily means that the _individual jurors_ must all live in both the district and the state. I see no authority for that interpretation. Read up on the [Vicinage clause](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicinage_Clause). The jurors do have to come from the federal district that is trying the case and the state where the crime occurred. (The district of Wyoming being the only federal district that overlaps a state border, the last part is usually moot). The Wikipedia article actually [mentions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicinage_Clause#The_perfect_crime.3F) Kalt’s Yellowstone argument and provides some analysis. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-can-murder-someone-in-yellowstone-and-i-cant-be-tried-for-it/781678/19 "2017-03-08T16:47:14Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > The notion that there could be a “murder zone” is ludicrous and clearly not the intent of any legislation. No kidding. > [@](#): > > The law professor is hairsplitting into a ridiculous conclusion. That’s what law professors do. It’s kinda their job. > [@](#): > > In actual fact, there have been murders in Yellowstone. In actual fact, have there been murders committed in the Idaho portion of Yellowstone? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-can-murder-someone-in-yellowstone-and-i-cant-be-tried-for-it/781678/20 "2017-03-08T17:09:27Z")
That latter bit I don’t know - I don’t happen to have access to my copy of _Death in Yellowstone_ at the moment otherwise I’d look there. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-can-murder-someone-in-yellowstone-and-i-cant-be-tried-for-it/781678.md?page=2)