# I can murder someone in Yellowstone and I can't be tried for it? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 8, 2017, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-can-murder-someone-in-yellowstone-and-i-cant-be-tried-for-it/781678 "2017-03-08T05:15:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-can-murder-someone-in-yellowstone-and-i-cant-be-tried-for-it/781678/21 "2017-03-08T17:10:11Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The law that was quoted says _“Nothing in this Act shall be construed to forbid the service in the park of any civil or criminal process of any court having jurisdiction in the States of Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming.”_ That seems to close any loopholes to me. Service of process =/= prosecution. > [@Pleonast](#): > > I’m not seeing what the problem with Yellowstone is. There are many circumstances where both the Feds and a state can try a person for crimes arising from a single action. After negotiating who goes first, they try the person according to their own procedures in their own courts. National parks are federal enclaves and state courts have no jurisdiction to hear cases arising in them. You are thinking of situations where the state and federal governments have concurrent jurisdiction, like the murder of a federal employee. > [@Broomstick](#): > > The notion that there could be a “murder zone” is ludicrous and clearly not the intent of any legislation. The law professor is hairsplitting into a ridiculous conclusion. > > In actual fact, there have been murders in Yellowstone. The courts dealt with it. I don’t have the time/energy to research a bunch of cites for this but I’m sure it could be googled or whatever. “I haven’t actually looked this up, but it sounds ridiculous so I disagree” is not a very GQ answer. [Read Kalt’s paper](https://www.scribd.com/document/213971659/Brian-C-Kalt-The-Perfect-Crime). It’s quite convincing. Kalt is not talking about all of Yellowstone. He is talking strictly about the 50 square miles that fall within the boundaries of Idaho, but for obscure historical reasons are part of the Wyoming federal district. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-can-murder-someone-in-yellowstone-and-i-cant-be-tried-for-it/781678/22 "2017-03-08T17:20:46Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Now the people above might be right that there’s no real issue and Wyoming would do the trial, I have no idea, but at least one law professor thinks congress should bother to take action to “close the loophole”. I don’t know Brian Kalt but I’m going to speculate he intended his article more as amusement for its readers than as an attempt to address a serious legal issue. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-can-murder-someone-in-yellowstone-and-i-cant-be-tried-for-it/781678/23 "2017-03-08T17:23:34Z")
This loophole sounds like a defense attorney’s dream come true. Don’t many lawyers actually get a kick out of winning a case based on a technicality - the more infuriating and face-palming the technicality, the better? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-can-murder-someone-in-yellowstone-and-i-cant-be-tried-for-it/781678/24 "2017-03-08T17:24:42Z")
And if someone is foolishly hitchhiking, and the strange serial-killer vibe-ish driver is driving them towards that 50-square-mile zone… ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-can-murder-someone-in-yellowstone-and-i-cant-be-tried-for-it/781678/25 "2017-03-08T17:33:21Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > This loophole sounds like a defense attorney’s dream come true. Don’t many lawyers actually get a kick out of winning a case based on a technicality - the more infuriating and face-palming the technicality, the better? I can only speak for myself, and my practice is civil rather than criminal, but I’d never recommend taking a case to trial if our only defenses are technical ones. Judges don’t like ruling based on hyper-technical arguments; they prefer to be able to rule consistent with both the spirit _and_ the letter of the law. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-can-murder-someone-in-yellowstone-and-i-cant-be-tried-for-it/781678/26 "2017-03-08T17:35:16Z")
> [@digs](#): > > You never thought I’d read that post, did you, Aldi? Well, yeah, turns out I’m a Doper! AND I’m going to be busy next weekend – get someone else to go on your “backpacking trip”. Who’s next on your list, bub? > > “C’mon, it’ll be fun. Let’s share the majesty of the wild!”… yeah, right. [del]Damn![/del]. Nothing could have been further from my thoughts but if you won’t come I’ll be thinking of you as I [del] push the next on the list off the top of the cliff[/del] sit peacefully admiring the grand vista before me. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-can-murder-someone-in-yellowstone-and-i-cant-be-tried-for-it/781678/27 "2017-03-08T17:52:12Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > Read up on the [Vicinage clause](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicinage_Clause). The jurors do have to come from the federal district that is trying the case and the state where the crime occurred. (The district of Wyoming being the only federal district that overlaps a state border, the last part is usually moot). I would say instead that there is case law in which a jury drawn solely from the district in which the case was tried was found to be _sufficient_ to satisfy the Vicinage Clause, without establishing that it is _necessary_ (simply because the question has not yet arisen). ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-can-murder-someone-in-yellowstone-and-i-cant-be-tried-for-it/781678/28 "2017-03-08T18:36:43Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > National parks are federal enclaves and state courts have no jurisdiction to hear cases arising in them. None at all? So if in my state “mopery” is a misdemeanor and “aggravated mopery” is a felony, but neither are federal offences, I can commit them flagrantly in my local National Park without fear of prosecution? Or, do federal courts have jurisdiction over state crimes in a National Park? How do appeals work? ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-can-murder-someone-in-yellowstone-and-i-cant-be-tried-for-it/781678/29 "2017-03-08T18:44:53Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > You can potentially kill someone in Yellowstone and not get tried for it by disappearing the body in one of those hot tubs from hell they have there, because nobody is going to find it later. No. The Law does not require a corpse for a murder conviction. [List of murder convictions without a body](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_murder_convictions_without_a_body) ---
**Author:** ![Skara\_Brae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f0a364/32.png) [@Skara\_Brae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skara_Brae)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-can-murder-someone-in-yellowstone-and-i-cant-be-tried-for-it/781678/30 "2017-03-08T19:15:37Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > No. The Law does not require a corpse for a murder conviction. > > [List of murder convictions without a body](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_murder_convictions_without_a_body) Yes, but there are plenty of people who just “disappear.” Plenty of people have died from exposure after getting lost while hiking, or were attacked by bears, or fell into acidic pools, etc. If no bodies are found, it could be hard to prove it wasn’t an accident. There are a surprising number of ways to [die in Yellowstone.](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B009R6HEF2/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1) ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-can-murder-someone-in-yellowstone-and-i-cant-be-tried-for-it/781678/31 "2017-03-08T19:23:21Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > In actual fact, have there been murders committed in the Idaho portion of Yellowstone? I tried to Google it, but the only results I kept getting back were related to the “murder zone”. So now I know not to vacation with the wife in Yellowstone. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-can-murder-someone-in-yellowstone-and-i-cant-be-tried-for-it/781678/32 "2017-03-08T19:35:00Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > None at all? So if in my state “mopery” is a misdemeanor and “aggravated mopery” is a felony, but neither are federal offences, I can commit them flagrantly in my local National Park without fear of prosecution? Or, do federal courts have jurisdiction over state crimes in a National Park? How do appeals work? [Yes](http://scholarship.law.berkeley.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3814&context=californialawreview) to the first question, except in California, which reserved some jurisdiction over its parks when it ceded the land to the federal government. Only federal law applies in other national parks; they’re like the District of Columbia except without municipal laws. There are no “state crimes” in a national park, so nobody has jurisdiction over such crimes. Appeals work as they do elsewhere in the federal system; there is an appeal as a matter of right to the applicable federal circuit, plus a discretionary appeal to SCOTUS. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-can-murder-someone-in-yellowstone-and-i-cant-be-tried-for-it/781678/33 "2017-03-08T19:39:32Z")
> [@Skara\_Brae](#): > > There are a surprising number of ways to [die in Yellowstone.](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B009R6HEF2/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1) I hear there are a million ways to die in the west. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2017, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-can-murder-someone-in-yellowstone-and-i-cant-be-tried-for-it/781678/34 "2017-03-09T01:18:10Z")
My usual answer to this loophole is that that sliver of land is not, in fact, unpopulated. It’s just unpopulated _by humans_. So you just find twelve grizzly bears living in that sliver of land, and empanel them. “Your honor, we find the defendant guilty by virtue of looking delicious.” ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2017, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-can-murder-someone-in-yellowstone-and-i-cant-be-tried-for-it/781678/35 "2017-03-09T01:28:40Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > My usual answer to this loophole is that that sliver of land is not, in fact, unpopulated. It’s just unpopulated _by humans_. So you just find twelve grizzly bears living in that sliver of land, and empanel them. > > “Your honor, we find the defendant guilty by virtue of looking delicious.” I think you might have grounds for appeal on the basis that a panel of grizzly bears does not constitute a jury of your peers. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2017, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-can-murder-someone-in-yellowstone-and-i-cant-be-tried-for-it/781678/36 "2017-03-09T01:51:54Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > I think you might have grounds for appeal on the basis that a panel of grizzly bears does not constitute a jury of your peers. Yeah. In some instances it might be a jury of your _betters._ 😉 ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2017, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-can-murder-someone-in-yellowstone-and-i-cant-be-tried-for-it/781678/37 "2017-03-09T01:57:19Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > My usual answer to this loophole is that that sliver of land is not, in fact, unpopulated. It’s just unpopulated _by humans_. So you just find twelve grizzly bears living in that sliver of land, and empanel them. > > “Your honor, we find the defendant guilty by virtue of looking delicious.” > [@friedo](#): > > I think you might have grounds for appeal on the basis that a panel of grizzly bears does not constitute a jury of your peers. True. But if the appellate court doesn’t hear the appeal until after the jury has had lunch it may be moot. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2017, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-can-murder-someone-in-yellowstone-and-i-cant-be-tried-for-it/781678/38 "2017-03-09T03:43:23Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Eagerly awaiting a definitive reply. There are a few people I know that I feel could benefit from a trip to Yellowstone with me. 🙂 Like most things in law, there is no definitive reply. Suppose in 2010 you asked, “Is same sex marriage a right granted by the Constitution?” You would have read a bunch of arguments about it and finally the answer turned out to be “Yes” as five learned Justices on the Supreme Court believed it was while only four learned Justices believed it was not. This question is a similar one that has compelling arguments on each side, many of which have been raised in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2017, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-can-murder-someone-in-yellowstone-and-i-cant-be-tried-for-it/781678/39 "2017-03-09T04:51:39Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > I think you might have grounds for appeal on the basis that a panel of grizzly bears does not constitute a jury of your peers. And what about their Second Amendment rights? Do you support the right to arm bears? ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2017, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-can-murder-someone-in-yellowstone-and-i-cant-be-tried-for-it/781678/40 "2017-03-09T04:58:03Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I don’t know Brian Kalt but I’m going to speculate he intended his article more as amusement for its readers than as an attempt to address a serious legal issue. Well it seems Kalt has actually written to members of congress seriously suggesting that congress takes action to solve this so I’m guessing it wasn’t just for amusement. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-can-murder-someone-in-yellowstone-and-i-cant-be-tried-for-it/781678.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-can-murder-someone-in-yellowstone-and-i-cant-be-tried-for-it/781678.md?page=3)