# I can't pay my rent. I'm doomed.
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-pay-my-rent-im-doomed/667777
**Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
**Created:** [September 2, 2013, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-pay-my-rent-im-doomed/667777 "2013-09-02T01:11:17Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 6
### Author:  [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2013, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-pay-my-rent-im-doomed/667777/101 "2013-09-04T00:51:07Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#):
>
> As to your second point: a time frame is reasonable, and would be one of the questions a potential contributor should be able to get an answer to.
That’s what my [original thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=698949) was for. The thread where nobody asked me anything.
---
### Author:  [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2013, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-pay-my-rent-im-doomed/667777/102 "2013-09-04T00:51:08Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#):
>
> Tipping?
>
> …here’s the thing. You weren’t asked to tip. If you contributed $5.00 to the project you would end up in the credits. If you contributed $10.00 you’d get a downloadable script. If you contributed $25 you’d get a copy of the DVD. This isn’t tipping. This is exchanging money for a tangible product/servce.
The point about tipping is an analogy (poorly worded, I admit) to what you do at for example a hair salon. If you are getting a haircut from an employee you tip them. If you are getting a haircut from the owner you don’t tip, because their relationship to the business is different. They presumably make profits above and beyond the actual hair cut money.
The analogy to the film maker is that \*\*GuanoLad \*\*gets the credit, the praise, the resume fodder as the _author_ of the work. He’s not just someone who was hired to do a job, it’s his vision. It may not ever have monetary reward and I didn’t intend to imply that was the goal of the project. But it’s a culmination of his artistic vision.
> [@](#):
>
> Where on earth did you think the funds were going to go? Not on sets. Not on software. Not on catering.
Fair enough, perhaps I was a bit naive. But IMO, this whole discussion would have been moot if he’d been a little more upfront that the money was going to cover his rent while he finished the project. If he had said that everyone who contributed funds would have known exactly what they were funding and would have been able to give without confusion. It’s not a huge thing, I certainly don’t feel like he was trying to dupe people, but I do feel he wasn’t fully forthcoming. It’s not a mortal sin, but to some folks it could cause hard feelings.
> [@](#):
>
> Do you want to see projects like Eleanor Xandler, Temporal Detective get made? Then fund the project. If you don’t, then don’t.
But what if it matters to me that the artists is mainly asking for money to cover his rent? For me, information like that is critical in deciding if I want to fund something. I love when people follow their passion and produce art. But the artists that I fund also work so they can support themselves as well. To be frank, I want to see the money I donate on the screen. I don’t know if it’s a minority opinion, but it’s my opinion.
Again, no significant bad feels towards \*\*GuanoLad \*\*about this project. However, I would hope that he’d be a little more clear on what the funds are going to next time. And I hope there is a next time. For me, I’ll be sure to ask a few more detailed questions next time I contribute to a crowd sourced art project.
---
### Author:  [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2013, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-pay-my-rent-im-doomed/667777/103 "2013-09-04T01:10:14Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#):
>
> Because to me it seemed so straightforward and clear that I didn’t anticipate any troubles, let alone this unfathomably weird problem. I am completely dumbfounded and mystified that even after all this explanation they _still_ aren’t happy. I have hidden nothing, and yet am being accused of hiding things. I have not misled, they have misinterpreted, and yet apparently that’s _my_ fault. Still some people are saying they want more transparency, while others are saying I should’ve said nothing.
>
> I cannot win.
…GuanoLad: if you hadn’t guessed I support you. However I can understand where the other guys are coming from. Some of them are just being snarky. But others genuinely are looking at this through a different world view and are actually trying to help.
You are tired. Stressed. Worried. There are a million things going on in your life right now that you can’t even begin to tell us about.
You need to walk away from the thread. There are two things in life that you can head toward: signal and noise. You need to get away from the noise. Messageboards are noise. Head towards the signal.
Watch this short film by photographer Zack Arias.
[ ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZYlQ4Wv8lE)
Step away. You have things to deal with. You’ve got a movie to make. Bills to pay. A life to lead. Head to the signal. Sort your shit out. What other people think of you is not your concern. Come back to this thread when your head is in a better place: you will probably have a laugh. 😃 If you were in Welly I’d take you out for a beer, slap you over the head and get you sorted. As you aren’t, have a virtual one on me. Now hurry up mate and get on with your life.
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### Author:  [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2013, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-pay-my-rent-im-doomed/667777/104 "2013-09-04T01:13:23Z")
I’ve been reading this thread but haven’t commented. I think, perhaps, the people who object to your spending (some of) the money on rent wouldn’t have objected quite as much if you can already cover your living expenses but are using a portion of the money raised to offset those expenses. But it seems that the primary purpose of the money is to prevent you from becoming homeless.
Frankly, my advice is to set the movie aside and work on improving your finances. Get a job (even if it’s only at a fast food place) and find a cheaper place to live. When you’ve got something of a financial cushion, you can return to making the movie.
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2013, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-pay-my-rent-im-doomed/667777/105 "2013-09-04T01:42:56Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#):
>
> I didn’t say it was dishonest. I said it was minimally honest.
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#):
>
> …“minimally honest” is a dishonest way of saying dishonest, you realize that, don’t you?
Maybe for you. I wouldn’t know. But I can assure you they mean two different things when I use them and my post made my meaning clear so there shouldn’t be any confusion.
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### Author:  [@AnalogSignal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnalogSignal)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2013, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-pay-my-rent-im-doomed/667777/106 "2013-09-04T01:53:34Z")
This thread is ridiculous. If your plan for paying the rent every month was waiting for donations, you didn’t have a plan. Sooner or later the donations would have run out and you would be homeless.
Many of us have art hobby projects. We understand that they are hobbies and have no chance of being a major source of income.
You should be looking for a job instead of wasting time in this thread.
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### Author:  [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2013, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-pay-my-rent-im-doomed/667777/107 "2013-09-04T02:09:41Z")
> [@Telemark](#):
>
> The point about tipping is an analogy (poorly worded, I admit) to what you do at for example a hair salon. If you are getting a haircut from an employee you tip them. If you are getting a haircut from the owner you don’t tip, because their relationship to the business is different. They presumably make profits above and beyond the actual hair cut money.
…it is not only poorly worded, it isn’t analogous at all. I’m a self-employed creative. I name a price. People choose to hire me, they pay the bill. None of that is a “tip.” Crowdfunding is the normal method of funding turned upside down. A creative proposes a product or service. People decide they want that product or service so they pay in advance. Once its funded the people get their product or service.
If you received the product/service and were so pleased with it you were to pay extra money then yeah, you could compare it to tipping. But you aren’t, so you can’t.
> [@](#):
>
> The analogy to the film maker is that \*\*GuanoLad \*\*gets the credit, the praise, the resume fodder as the _author_ of the work. He’s not just someone who was hired to do a job, it’s his vision. It may not ever have monetary reward and I didn’t intend to imply that was the goal of the project. But it’s a culmination of his artistic vision.
Enough with this “artistic vision” nonsense. Do you know how many times people ask me to cover an event with the promise of “photo credit” and “exposure?” My response nearly every time is “photo credit doesn’t pay my rent.” I literally have said this to people.
My hourly rate is $180 per hour. I take off 15% in sales tax and 30% in income tax before I even see the money. I pay for parking, for petrol, and the rest of my overhead out of that money. The sad thing is that in real life I actually have to justify my fee. Because people think that all I do is “snap the shutter.” I’ve got to spend $7000.00 on gear upgrades this month just to keep up with the competition. That money doesn’t come from thin air.
I don’t want credit/praise/resume fodder. I want to pay my damn bills.
You speak of the “idealized” view of the starving artist. It is entirely reasonable for GuanoLad to compensate himself for his artistic endeavours. And crowdsourcing funds for project is a fantastic way for artists to actually get paid.
> [@](#):
>
> Fair enough, perhaps I was a bit naive. But IMO, this whole discussion would have been moot if he’d been a little more upfront that the money was going to cover his rent while he finished the project. If he had said that everyone who contributed funds would have known exactly what they were funding and would have been able to give without confusion. It’s not a huge thing, I certainly don’t feel like he was trying to dupe people, but I do feel he wasn’t fully forthcoming. It’s not a mortal sin, but to some folks it could cause hard feelings.
Naive is correct. GuanoLad was as forthcoming as he assumed he needed to be considering the circumstances. Everyone had plenty of opportunity to ask “where the money was going.”
> [@](#):
>
> But what if it matters to me that the artists is mainly asking for money to cover his rent? For me, information like that is critical in deciding if I want to fund something. I love when people follow their passion and produce art. But the artists that I fund also work so they can support themselves as well. To be frank, I want to see the money I donate on the screen. I don’t know if it’s a minority opinion, but it’s my opinion.
I almost find it sad that you only want to fund artists that do something other than art to support themselves. The magic of crowdsourcing is that if gives many artists the opportunity to make money from creating stuff that they love to create without having to resort to the drudgery of the “day job.” Creative work either speaks to you or it doesn’t. Pay for it or don’t pay for it.
> [@](#):
>
> Again, no significant bad feels towards \*\*GuanoLad \*\*about this project. However, I would hope that he’d be a little more clear on what the funds are going to next time. And I hope there is a next time. For me, I’ll be sure to ask a few more detailed questions next time I contribute to a crowd sourced art project.
I would ask that in all seriousness you re-evaluate how you look at and assess art. If I chose not to support artists who used drugs and got drunk just imagine how much art I would have been deprived of. Yet you don’t want to support artists who want to commit the cardinal crime of paying themselves. It’s an attitude I struggle to understand.
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### Author:  [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2013, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-pay-my-rent-im-doomed/667777/108 "2013-09-04T02:11:23Z")
Does anyone have an idea of the magnitude of effort to turn something shot entirely on green screen into a polished video?
I haven’t looked at computer-generated video in 30 years.
I suspect that generating the sets entirely digitally would be as much effort as building physical sets, and probably several orders of magnitude more.
Good luck with the shadows!
After you find an honest source of money and fulfill all perks you can - the scripts, posters, playbiiis.
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### Author:  [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2013, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-pay-my-rent-im-doomed/667777/109 "2013-09-04T02:19:56Z")
So this has to end.
I acknowledge that some people felt misled by what I did. I had no intentions of ever being in any way deceptive, I believed my intentions were clearly stated, and that there wouldn’t be any problem with how the money was spent as long as the perks were fulfilled.
I’m sorry if you are upset by what you thought was one thing but was another, especially everyone who donated, such as **IvoryTowerDenizen** and **LittleNemo** , and I am extremely grateful for all that you have contributed, it has really helped. I have also learned a great lesson here.
But let me end with these four quotes, all of which can be accessed from the original thread [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=698949).
[From the Crowdfunding Video](https://vimeo.com/72004109):
> [@](#):
>
> Unlike previous efforts in which I have participated, I have taken this endeavour upon myself to complete, and despite my best intentions find myself at quite the impasse. My coffers are dry, and I require an injection of funds to complete this magnificent venture.
[From my Indiegogo Page](http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/eleanor-xandler-temporal-detective/x/4322702):
> [@](#):
>
> I’m three quarters through post production, and need funds to keep me going, so I’m seeking outside help to get it complete.
>
> This time I’m doing all of the post-production myself. Not just the editing, but the 3D graphics, the compositing, the sound effects, the colour grade, and even the DVD.
[From the Webpage I set up](http://guanolad.com/eleanor/):
> [@](#):
>
> Most of the compositing is done, and I’ve dabbled a bit with the sound effects. I hope with a donation of funds I can get it complete in double-quick time. Music is still to come, that will be handled by someone else, and then I have to make some promotional materials for the Indiegogo donators, and the DVDs for everybody. Luckily I am pretty good at both of those things, so I should enjoy it and do a good job too.
[From my Blog](http://guanolad.blogspot.com.au/search/label/Eleanor%20Xandler):
> [@](#):
>
> Couple that with the fact that I am out of work, and have run short of money, I am a bit worried and stressed, which isn’t the best environment to achieve high quality work. I spend my nights sleeplessly worrying about the next day and what my immediate future will bring.
Thanks.
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### Author:  [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2013, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-pay-my-rent-im-doomed/667777/110 "2013-09-04T02:33:05Z")
> [@usedtobe](#):
>
> Good luck with the shadows!
I’m going to do a behind-the-scenes video on how I dealt with them. I think what I did was rather clever.
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### Author:  [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2013, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-pay-my-rent-im-doomed/667777/111 "2013-09-04T13:48:38Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#):
>
> _This_ thread is a complaint that I’m about to be homeless, and I was looking for sympathy and advice. What I got was a misinformed pile-on. Thanks for boosting my self-esteem!
I’m sorry. Truly. I wasn’t trying to join the pile-on. I was trying to explain why people were upset. I don’t even think people are piling on to you, not really, I think they are explaining. Because the thing is:
> [@](#):
>
> For FUCK’S SAKE! You have NO IDEA what I’m scrambling to do here while my home is being taken away from me!
Yes we do. I’ve been in that position before.
Anyway, good luck to you. Take care of yourself. I know your art is important to you, but worry about rent and food first.
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### Author:  [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2013, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-pay-my-rent-im-doomed/667777/112 "2013-09-04T14:30:28Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#):
>
> Yet you don’t want to support artists who want to commit the cardinal crime of paying themselves. It’s an attitude I struggle to understand.
Then let’s agree to disagree and move on. I hold no ill will towards \*\*GuanoLad \*\*and hope he both finishes his project and has a comfortable place to live.
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### Author:  [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2013, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-pay-my-rent-im-doomed/667777/113 "2013-09-04T14:53:11Z")
Maybe I missed something. How much money were you expecting to make from the finished product? I don’t really see the market for it. If there is no way to make money from it then you are asking people to basically pay your salary while you work on a vanity project. You obviously have talent. No question about that. I wish you luck and hope you find a job soon.
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### Author:  [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2013, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-pay-my-rent-im-doomed/667777/114 "2013-09-04T15:34:11Z")
Borderline
On one hand, I’ve known people that went to jail for spending a business investor’s money on personal living expenses. But these were REAL businesses, with contracts and such.
And I’ve certainly seen enough people slammed back on TV small claims court shows for misappropriating money for living expenses. Taking money from an account set up for a 3rd party for your child’s education and claiming " well, my kid isn’t going to live long enough to go to college if he don’t eat" doesn’t cut it as a defense.
But this is by no means a business, it’s a hobby. While I don’t understand why anyone would subsidize a stranger’s hobby no matter how cool it is, it’s their money, they can throw it in the gutter if they want.
The one thing I’ve learned from this thread is that crowdfunding is a unregulated sucky deal for the funder.
Now what offends ME is that I think the OP intended this thread to be a stealth cross-posting to his Marketplace thread and I think he had a fantasy that everyone would read this and run to the Marketplace thread and throw money at him.
If I have money I want to throw away I’ll check out the Marketplace thread. But don’t cross post, no one else does.
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2013, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-pay-my-rent-im-doomed/667777/115 "2013-09-04T15:59:07Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#):
>
> I acknowledge that some people felt misled by what I did. I had no intentions of ever being in any way deceptive, I believed my intentions were clearly stated, and that there wouldn’t be any problem with how the money was spent as long as the perks were fulfilled.
>
> I’m sorry if you are upset by what you thought was one thing but was another, especially everyone who donated, such as **IvoryTowerDenizen** and **LittleNemo** , and I am extremely grateful for all that you have contributed, it has really helped. I have also learned a great lesson here.
I don’t feel that you robbed me or ripped me off. Nor do I feel that you lied. I’m not asking for my money back.
But I do feel you should have been clearer in your expectations. You should have explained that part of the money would be going towards your living expenses while you worked on the project as well as the direct costs of the project. It’s a reasonable request and I would have still made the same donation. But when you’re asking people for their money you owe it to them to be as transparent as possible.
It’s not my intent to participate in what you feel is a pile-on. But you started a thread on this subject. That means other people are going to post what they think on the subject. You have to accept that some people are going to see things differently than you do.
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### Author:  [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2013, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-pay-my-rent-im-doomed/667777/116 "2013-09-04T16:20:53Z")
Filmmakers are artists. Some artists are lucky enough and talented enough to have a patron(s), allowing them to focus 100% on their art while earning a salary. Most artists have to either earn a living outside of their art while pursuing it on the side, or sell their artistic talents on a commission basis to earn a living while pursuing their projects.
This is the way the art world has worked since antiquity. Nothing has changed. This is not a difficult concept to grasp. Nowadays there are many more avenues to patronage/commissions, but it essentially works exactly the same was as it did in Michelangelo’s day. Guanolad, you need to either find a job and work on your movie on the side (yes it sucks, but hey), sell your editing/FX/etc talents to others who need those skills for their projects while pursuing yours on the side, or find a new source of patronage.
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### Author:  [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2013, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-pay-my-rent-im-doomed/667777/117 "2013-09-04T16:49:35Z")
Has the OP said yet why he can’t get a real job and then do his movie in his spare time?
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### Author:  [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2013, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-pay-my-rent-im-doomed/667777/118 "2013-09-04T16:57:26Z")
Something along the lines of having no time to work on the movie if he had a real job. :dubious:
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### Author:  [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2013, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-pay-my-rent-im-doomed/667777/119 "2013-09-04T17:08:10Z")
I f you could honestly tell us that you have faithfully dedicated at least 50 hours a week every week to your project then I would be more sympathetic, any less and I woulod say you need to get a real job instead of a dream.
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### Author:  [@runningdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runningdude)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2013, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-pay-my-rent-im-doomed/667777/120 "2013-09-04T23:19:38Z")
[QUOTE=IvoryTowerDenizen]
To my naive eye, …
That being said, I have no problem with funding living expenses that way, but my issue is that lack of transparency and the assumption that everyone should know how it goes. Maybe the OP was being naive in not predicting that the folks funding you might have these concerns. It’s a learning experience on both sides. After all, my naive money pays bills as well as more experienced money. I just want to feel good about what I’m donating towards.
[/QUOTE]
“Crowdsourcing” is by definition paying some stranger’s rent; to believe otherwise is naive. Sure, there may eventually be a movie/painting/novel, but art is _a business_ not a hobby.
Michelangelo didn’t wash dishes in the Vatican cafeteria to support his hobby of painting the ceilings; the Pope paid him directly to paint! In the 1930’s, artists didn’t simply paint all those post offices and city halls for free - Roosevelt paid them through the Works Progress Administration.
“Crowdsourcing” simply shifts the burden/patronage on random people with too much money in their pockets (actually that isn’t too much different from how most art is made).
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