# i cant' rite or due math buti shud grag, no- gradyu, no-get teh dipolma neway **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 10, 2006, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-rite-or-due-math-buti-shud-grag-no-gradyu-no-get-teh-dipolma-neway/343803 "2006-02-10T03:49:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-rite-or-due-math-buti-shud-grag-no-gradyu-no-get-teh-dipolma-neway/343803/21 "2006-02-10T06:40:33Z")
> [@TJdude825](#): > > My only problem with the exam is that it’s so easy you’d have to TRY to fail it. Either make it hard enough that it actually shows something about students’ abilities, or get rid of it. That’s really sad. Because apparently approximately 100,000 students in CA have managed to do just that. Fail it, at least one portion of it, that is. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-rite-or-due-math-buti-shud-grag-no-gradyu-no-get-teh-dipolma-neway/343803/22 "2006-02-10T06:41:59Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > What happens if the students do display proficiency and get told they’re wrong, their grades marked down for offering a correct answer that the teacher’s too careless or ignorant to accept? > > Just this evening, one of my proofreading clients called to double-check a couple of things before firing off a protest to her young son’s teacher. Two items on a test paper he’d written had been scored – heavily slashed with big red marks, in fact – as wrong when they weren’t. > > “The writers’ convention” – teacher insisted it should be apostrophe s. Though how a single person can hold a convention I can’t fathom. > > “I go there every day” – teacher insisted it should be one word. As an adjective modifying a noun? Yes. In this usage? Hell, no. > > Nitpicking? The kid’s going to be taking a big test next week in which stuff like this will weigh heavily. If these sort of blatantly wrong marks are typical of his teacher, what’ll that do to his grades? Or his confidence? What does that say about the quality of the teaching he’s getting? > > Which is not to say that the lawsuit cited is anything but asinine; only that students’ inability to write correctly and coherently may not be entirely their fault. I am intimately familiar with the writing section of the CAHSEE. The kind of minor nitpicky errors you’re writing about would almost never be sufficient to drop a score from pass to fail. Conventions are only one part of the rubric. They’re looking for kids to write a few reasonably coherent paragraphs in response to an interesting prompt. If you can’t do that (or elementary math) you don’t deserve a high school diploma. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-rite-or-due-math-buti-shud-grag-no-gradyu-no-get-teh-dipolma-neway/343803/23 "2006-02-10T06:55:15Z")
Here’s the CAHSEE rubric: [http://score.rims.k12.ca.us/sub\_standards/Scoring\_Guide\_Essay.html](http://score.rims.k12.ca.us/sub_standards/Scoring_Guide_Essay.html) As you can see, even a top level paper can have a few errors. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-rite-or-due-math-buti-shud-grag-no-gradyu-no-get-teh-dipolma-neway/343803/24 "2006-02-10T07:43:58Z")
> [@CanvasShoes](#): > > This is the part I was wondering about. How in the world could a test be discriminatory? You either know english and math, or you don’t. Same reasons why some sections of the SAT disappeared about ten or fifteen years back, and those that remained got rewritten. I think the basis is cultural. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-rite-or-due-math-buti-shud-grag-no-gradyu-no-get-teh-dipolma-neway/343803/25 "2006-02-10T08:05:04Z")
> [@CanvasShoes](#): > > …apparently approximately 100,000 students in CA have managed to do just that. Fail it, at least one portion of it, that is. From the Washington Post: > [@](#): > > [link](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/09/AR2006020900229.html) > > At the start of this school year, about 100,000 seniors in California had not passed at least one of the sections – more than one-fifth of the state’s roughly 450,000 high school seniors. > > State officials have said they do not have updated figures, although they say the number is much lower now because students have had several chances to take the exam this school year. ## Since the 100,000 number is from the start of the school year, many of this set may have taken the exam as sophomores. (Or not, corrections welcome.) Discriminatory: I suspect those whose native language in not English would have a tougher time with the reading and writing section. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-rite-or-due-math-buti-shud-grag-no-gradyu-no-get-teh-dipolma-neway/343803/26 "2006-02-10T08:13:31Z")
> [@Measure for Measure](#): > > From the Washington Post: Since the 100,000 number is from the start of the school year, many of this set may have taken the exam as sophomores. (Or not, corrections welcome.) ## Ah yes, thanks. I DID miss that part. 😃 (this is what happens when I remain in denial and refuse to wear my reading glasses while surfing). > [@](#): > > Discriminatory: I suspect those whose native language in not English would have a tougher time with the reading and writing section. Hmmmmmmmmm… Okay…so If I took say a french class in high school and couldn’t do the course requirements, it would be discriminatory to fail me? They are in a US (english speaking) school, trying to pass US subjects. They do not have to graduate, but if they want to, they must be able to pass all course requirements. As someone else mentioned, they have a long time, remedial tests, tutors offered. They’ve had the same opportunities to learn the english courses as they have the other courses. I just can’t see the discriminatory aspect of it. But I’m sure that you’re right, and that’s what they’re thinking when they say that. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-rite-or-due-math-buti-shud-grag-no-gradyu-no-get-teh-dipolma-neway/343803/27 "2006-02-10T08:29:40Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > What happens if the students do display proficiency and get told they’re wrong, their grades marked down for offering a correct answer that the teacher’s too careless or ignorant to accept? > > Just this evening, one of my proofreading clients called to double-check a couple of things before firing off a protest to her young son’s teacher. Two items on a test paper he’d written had been scored – heavily slashed with big red marks, in fact – as wrong when they weren’t. > > “The writers’ convention” – teacher insisted it should be apostrophe s. Though how a single person can hold a convention I can’t fathom. > > “I go there every day” – teacher insisted it should be one word. As an adjective modifying a noun? Yes. In this usage? Hell, no. > > Nitpicking? The kid’s going to be taking a big test next week in which stuff like this will weigh heavily. If these sort of blatantly wrong marks are typical of his teacher, what’ll that do to his grades? Or his confidence? What does that say about the quality of the teaching he’s getting? > > Which is not to say that the lawsuit cited is anything but asinine; only that students’ inability to write correctly and coherently may not be entirely their fault. If your client is going to confront the teacher, I’d like to hear back how that went. I suspect the teacher will be defensive and will not concede the correction; I hope your client escalates it at that point. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-rite-or-due-math-buti-shud-grag-no-gradyu-no-get-teh-dipolma-neway/343803/28 "2006-02-10T15:25:20Z")
And people wonder why you now need a college diploma to get a decent job. Used to be that a high school diploma meant something. Now all it means is that you managed to sit in a chair for 12 years. I’d suggest three types of diplomas: Academic - “I’m going on to college” Technical - “I’ve learned the basics of a trade and have work experience” SOMA12 - “Sat On My Ass - 12 years” ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-rite-or-due-math-buti-shud-grag-no-gradyu-no-get-teh-dipolma-neway/343803/29 "2006-02-10T15:37:09Z")
Clarification: My client’s son is in grade school in Massachusetts, in a supposedly excellent private school. My comments were meant as a general observation on the variable quality of teaching, and its consequences, rather than specific to the California high school graduation test. This bit: > [@](#): > > On Wednesday, 20 high school seniors and their parents sued the state Department of Education and school Superintendent Jack O’Connell, claiming the exam is illegal and discriminatory. They worry the test may prevent the students from graduating. just boggles the mind. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-rite-or-due-math-buti-shud-grag-no-gradyu-no-get-teh-dipolma-neway/343803/30 "2006-02-10T15:38:24Z")
Why doesn’t this surprise me? Oh, I know why–in my mostly white, upper middle class school district, I find shit like this, **on display in the hallways** , from the art teacher: The second graders learned about Vincent Van Gogh. They were to draw and color a picture of they’re favorite rooms or once they would like to have. Here is there work. AAAAGGGGGHHHHH!!! Hey, I hear and agree on the student part ( I do wonder how many have an undiagnosed learning disability), I am RABID about the “English isn’t my first language” crappola–but look at some of the teachers! Teacher used to be a revered profession (at least in my world). Now the damned teachers can’t even punctuate OR spell. If these kids can’t pass this test–too effing bad. Make 'em take another year of school. As it is, their employer will have to eat the cost of educating them. As for the “we don’t speak English at home” crowd-so what? You live in a country where the dominant language is English-cope. The Pakistanis, Indians, Nigerians, Koreans, Ghanians etc–ALL cope. And they test well. Get over your damned selves. Grrr. ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-rite-or-due-math-buti-shud-grag-no-gradyu-no-get-teh-dipolma-neway/343803/31 "2006-02-10T15:56:14Z")
The only thing unfair is that there isn’t a national standard for diplomas. Some chump in one state gets a diploma for showing up, while a progressive state tries to give some credibility to their high school diplomas, only to be snake bitten for raising the standards. I know, I know…power of the States and all that. When standards/goals are raised, there is always a lag before the group adjusts to the new standards/goals. This is normal, and people will improve their performance when challenged/pushed. Since **personal accountability has gone the way of the Model T** , none of us should be surprised that there is no shortage of crying, blame and lawsuits. **These kids were raised to always expect to succeed** , and probably never sniffed honest character building failure. **Failing can be GOOD** , but since failing own your own merits and coming back stronger on your own merits is now considered a fucking joke…we get this backlash. I’m better for falling short, failing and getting out of the pigeon holes I’ve been in. **God forbid any kid now should have to learn from failure**. ---
**Author:** ![Marlitharn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/779978/32.png) [@Marlitharn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marlitharn)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-rite-or-due-math-buti-shud-grag-no-gradyu-no-get-teh-dipolma-neway/343803/32 "2006-02-10T16:03:16Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > The second graders learned about Vincent Van Gogh. They were to draw and color a picture of they’re favorite rooms or once they would like to have. Here is there work. That art teacher needs to be paper machéd into a small room with a copy of _The Elements of Style_ and not let out until she apologizes to the apostrophe. Don’t students in other countries have to take some kind of leaving exam? Why are we so scared to make our kids prove their stuff? We spend 13 years educating young’uns (counting kindergarten) and it doesn’t seem unreasonable to ask for some sort of demonstration of competence before turning them loose on an unwitting world. ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-rite-or-due-math-buti-shud-grag-no-gradyu-no-get-teh-dipolma-neway/343803/33 "2006-02-10T16:13:01Z")
I’ve been watching _Beauty and the Geek_ and I’m still stunned that most of the “beauties” are in some form of third level education. If they managed to graduate high school and get into college, I can only imagine what level you’d have to be at to fail this test. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-rite-or-due-math-buti-shud-grag-no-gradyu-no-get-teh-dipolma-neway/343803/34 "2006-02-10T16:28:40Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > And people wonder why you now need a college diploma to get a decent job. Used to be that a high school diploma meant something. Now all it means is that you managed to sit in a chair for 12 years. > > I’d suggest three types of diplomas: > Academic - “I’m going on to college” > Technical - “I’ve learned the basics of a trade and have work experience” > SOMA12 - “Sat On My Ass - 12 years” I believe that some high school “graduates” now get a “certificate of attendance” instead of an actual diploma. The CoAs are handed out in the graduation ceremony, so the mentally handicapped get to walk across the stage and get a piece of paper and a handshake, like the rest of their class. I’d like to point out that in the days when a HS diploma meant something, many people didn’t complete HS, and this was considered normal. Of course, back in those days, there were a LOT more manual labor jobs around, and one could earn a living at those jobs. I don’t want to go back to those days, I just wanted to point out that fact. I do think that a high school diploma should mean that the graduate has mastered the basics of math, science, language arts, and other skills. A graduate should be able to compose an essay(or even a memo), balance a checkbook, and understand the difference between the scientific and common definition of a theory, for instance. I’m sure that other people would like to see other abilities to be tested. I think that the first step would be making the teachers take the graduation test…and permanently ban from teaching all those who can’t pass in three tries. The second step would be to pay the teachers who pass a decent salary. When my daughter was in school, my husband and I were quite active in her education. The teachers generally expressed quite a bit of surprise at BOTH of a student’s parents showing up for meetings, recitals, etc. They said that way too many students didn’t have anyone who cared about their school progress. I’m sure that lack of parental involvement is the largest factor in kids not learning their lessons. Kids need someone who will sit them down and make sure that they actually study and do homework, and many are just not getting that at home. There’s a limit as to what teachers can do in the classroom. ---
**Author:** ![Mindfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mindfield/32/19759_2.png) [@Mindfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mindfield)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-rite-or-due-math-buti-shud-grag-no-gradyu-no-get-teh-dipolma-neway/343803/35 "2006-02-10T16:36:08Z")
Shit like this is what frosts my willy. Whiny, dumbass students crying to their whiny, dumbass parents because a test was “too hard” and then following their whiny, dumbass parents on their way to sue the whole damn school because it had the audacity to fail their students who are _always_ bright, intelligent, _good_ students who couldn’t possibly have failed these tests unless there was some kind of standard put forth that these kids couldn’t attain because of their race, religion, social or financial status, location, accent, political affiliation, choice of automobile or preference for white or yellow cheese. The bottom line is: If you haven’t got the chutzpah to pass the test, _you aren’t ready to graduate!_ Jesus H. on toast, if you can’t spell subpoena, you have _no business filing for one because you can’t!_ Fuck, it ain’t hard. 1. Pay attention in school. 2. Pass the test. 3. ??? 4. PROFIT! ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-rite-or-due-math-buti-shud-grag-no-gradyu-no-get-teh-dipolma-neway/343803/36 "2006-02-10T16:52:31Z")
> [@Lynn Bodoni](#): > > I’d like to point out that in the days when a HS diploma meant something, many people didn’t complete HS, and this was considered normal. Of course, back in those days, there were a LOT more manual labor jobs around, and one could earn a living at those jobs. I don’t want to go back to those days, I just wanted to point out that fact. Problematically, there are a lto of peopple in this world who simply aren’t cut out to do anythig else. HUman beings are designed to live physical lives. Within that scope, we can become extremely sophisticated. Almost any male human can become an expert hunter. Not many can become theoterical physicists. But we need more physicists than hunters, and that’s a problem. We can try to push people harder into physics - but what about those who are simply very good hunters? ---
**Author:** ![chrisk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@chrisk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chrisk)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-rite-or-due-math-buti-shud-grag-no-gradyu-no-get-teh-dipolma-neway/343803/37 "2006-02-10T16:56:06Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > Almost any male human can become an expert hunter. Not many can become theoterical physicists. But we need more physicists than hunters, and that’s a problem. We can try to push people harder into physics - but what about those who are simply very good hunters? [tongue in cheek] Keep them from having kids. Then we evolve into a species of physicists. [/TIC] ---
**Author:** ![RancidYakButterTeaParty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@RancidYakButterTeaParty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RancidYakButterTeaParty)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-rite-or-due-math-buti-shud-grag-no-gradyu-no-get-teh-dipolma-neway/343803/38 "2006-02-10T17:03:49Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Hey, I hear and agree on the student part ( I do wonder how many have an undiagnosed learning disability), I am RABID about the “English isn’t my first language” crappola–but look at some of the teachers! Teacher used to be a revered profession (at least in my world). Now the damned teachers can’t even punctuate OR spell. > Grrr. As a teacher, I definitely agree with your assessment of _many_ teachers in our schools today. We have to understand that this is going to continue until colleges start to make educational coursework an actual challenge, and teachers start to get paid better entry level salaries. I do hate it when all teachers are lumped together. It is unfortunate that, as usual, the terrible stories we have heard about the educational system have altered the perception of all teachers. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-rite-or-due-math-buti-shud-grag-no-gradyu-no-get-teh-dipolma-neway/343803/39 "2006-02-10T17:08:09Z")
> [@Lynn Bodoni](#): > > I’d like to point out that in the days when a HS diploma meant something, many people didn’t complete HS, and this was considered normal. Of course, back in those days, there were a LOT more manual labor jobs around, and one could earn a living at those jobs. I don’t want to go back to those days, I just wanted to point out that fact. And back in those days, people quit school for legitimate reasons; both my mother and my grandmother had to quit grade school because their labor was needed to keep the family afloat. It was a matter of economic necessity for many families. And “dropout” doesn’t necessarily mean “stupid,” either. My mom may not have had a high school diploma, but she became an officer manager at a pediatrics clinic where she caught a jerk embezzling huge amounts of money and successfully steered the clinic through a major financial crisis. Take that, you Harvard MBA’s! ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-rite-or-due-math-buti-shud-grag-no-gradyu-no-get-teh-dipolma-neway/343803/40 "2006-02-10T17:19:37Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > Problematically, there are a lto of peopple in this world who simply aren’t cut out to do anythig else. HUman beings are designed to live physical lives. Within that scope, we can become extremely sophisticated. Almost any male human can become an expert hunter. Not many can become theoterical physicists. But we need more physicists than hunters, and that’s a problem. We can try to push people harder into physics - but what about those who are simply very good hunters? Several statements there fraught with eminently contestable assumptions. 1. **Designed to live physical lives.** _Designed?_ Evolution isn’t striving towards anything. Even were it, your statement is at serious odds with the arise of the so-called “large brain” in _Homo Sapiens_. You might find it instructive to explore the meaning and root of that last word—_sapien_. 2. **Almost any male human can become an expert hunter. Not many can become theoterical physicists. But we need more physicists than hunters, and that’s a problem.** “Need?” _Need_ 'em to do what? I suggest what we really **need** is to eat. And it tales a damned big bowl of Quark-o’s to make a balanced breakfast. Besides, if we’re “designed to live physical lives,” as you asserted, then theoretical physicists would be wholly unnecessary. One doesn’t need an advanced, esoteric degree to subsistence farm. 3. **We can try to push people harder into physics - but what about those who are simply very good hunters?** Methinks this is called the fallacy of the exclusion of the middle. Dirt farmers and physicists is all you allow us; you’ve left no room for the vast mid-range of occupations. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-rite-or-due-math-buti-shud-grag-no-gradyu-no-get-teh-dipolma-neway/343803.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-rite-or-due-math-buti-shud-grag-no-gradyu-no-get-teh-dipolma-neway/343803.md?page=3)