# i cant' rite or due math buti shud grag, no- gradyu, no-get teh dipolma neway **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 10, 2006, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-rite-or-due-math-buti-shud-grag-no-gradyu-no-get-teh-dipolma-neway/343803 "2006-02-10T03:49:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-rite-or-due-math-buti-shud-grag-no-gradyu-no-get-teh-dipolma-neway/343803/41 "2006-02-10T17:57:36Z")
> [@Lynn Bodoni](#): > > I’m sure that lack of parental involvement is the largest factor in kids not learning their lessons. Kids need someone who will sit them down and make sure that they actually study and do homework, and many are just not getting that at home. There’s a limit as to what teachers can do in the classroom. I think this is totally accurate, which makes these lawsuits even more laughable. Chances are, the lack of parent involvement was the primary cause of the kid’s ignorance, and the parents are suing the school over it. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-rite-or-due-math-buti-shud-grag-no-gradyu-no-get-teh-dipolma-neway/343803/42 "2006-02-10T18:04:52Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > The second graders learned about Vincent Van Gogh. They were to draw and color a picture of they’re favorite rooms or once they would like to have. Here is there work. Let me parse this for us all. The errors in the above sentence are as follows (feel free to add to my list): _they’re favorite rooms_ -should be **their**. _once they would like to have_ should be \*\*ones \*\*. And _there work_ should be **their**. Or was I whooshed? I don’t buy the whole “back in the day, times were simpler and a man (woman) could get by without brainiac stuff”. Bullshit on a stick. Going back a century ago, the Victorians prided themselves on their intellect. Education was revered and settlers across America wanted, and worked hard, to get schools and libraries built. Americans wanted an educated populace–one reason it has state sponsored schools. Poems were memorized, long division done in their heads etc. IMS, the Lyceum or something similiar was a travelling cultural exhibit of opera, literature, dance, music etc–people were hungry for this stuff. Manual labor has never equalled resist education/remain ignorant (excepting slaves here and I suppose alot of history for women). EVERYONE on the freakin planet needs to know how to read and write and do basic math. I don’t care if the highlight of your ambition is to ride the garbage truck daily. I don’t care if you aspire to digging ditches. You still have to function in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-rite-or-due-math-buti-shud-grag-no-gradyu-no-get-teh-dipolma-neway/343803/43 "2006-02-10T18:47:54Z")
> [@CanvasShoes](#): > > This is the part I was wondering about. How in the world could a test be discriminatory? You either know english and math, or you don’t. If you don’t, then you haven’t done the work required to graduate. Tests can conceivably be culturally discriminatory, I think, by making tests that presuppose knowledge of activites that poorer minority populations generally lack. I saw an example once, it was some kind of “which sentence is wrong” type question, and it was all sentences about regattas and yachts and such. I wish I could remember it better, but I do recall thinking it would be a harder question to answer if you weren’t familiar with yacht clubs and such, and could have simply been re-written to greatly minimize that type of problem. Regarding the test referred to in the OP, if I had to bet I’d bet it isn’t and this is yet another case of people seeing discrimination when there is none. Can’t know for sure unless they give an example, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Nocturne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9fc348/32.png) [@Nocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nocturne)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-rite-or-due-math-buti-shud-grag-no-gradyu-no-get-teh-dipolma-neway/343803/44 "2006-02-10T19:31:24Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > Tests can conceivably be culturally discriminatory, I think, by making tests that presuppose knowledge of activites that poorer minority populations generally lack. I saw an example once, it was some kind of “which sentence is wrong” type question, and it was all sentences about regattas and yachts and such. I wish I could remember it better, but I do recall thinking it would be a harder question to answer if you weren’t familiar with yacht clubs and such, and could have simply been re-written to greatly minimize that type of problem. If I remember correctly, that was a vocabulary question asking what a regatta actually was. A lot of people I know, even well-read ones, have never even heard of a regatta. I work for a company teaching for standardized tests, and the R&D department recruited me to go through several standardized test modules for grades 3-10 to look for a number of things, one of which was cultural/ethnic/gender bias. Examples like the “regatta” one were provided as a yardstick. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-rite-or-due-math-buti-shud-grag-no-gradyu-no-get-teh-dipolma-neway/343803/45 "2006-02-10T20:42:04Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > 1. **Designed to live physical lives.** _Designed?_ Evolution isn’t striving towards anything. Even were it, your statement is at serious odds with the arise of the so-called “large brain” in _Homo Sapiens_. You might find it instructive to explore the meaning and root of that last word—_sapien_. I’m well aware of what Sapiens means, thankyouverymuch. The fact that we are smart doesn’t change the fact that we are designed (iof you prefer, adapted :rolleyes: nitpicking) to pick randomplants and hit things until they die. I didn’t say we _couldn’t_ do other things. But I don’t think that any education system is going to make me a theoretical physicist. I’m not built to think like Einstein, and I know it. > [@](#): > > 1. **Almost any male human can become an expert hunter. Not many can become theoterical physicists. But we need more physicists than hunters, and that’s a problem.** “Need?” _Need_ 'em to do what? I suggest what we really **need** is to eat. And it tales a damned big bowl of Quark-o’s to make a balanced breakfast. Besides, if we’re “designed to live physical lives,” as you asserted, then theoretical physicists would be wholly unnecessary. One doesn’t need an advanced, esoteric degree to subsistence farm. Oh good heaven. Nitpicking out the wazoo. Fine. There is greater societal demand for X, where X is greater brain-work. Are you happy? :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > 1. **We can try to push people harder into physics - but what about those who are simply very good hunters?** Methinks this is called the fallacy of the exclusion of the middle. Dirt farmers and physicists is all you allow us; you’ve left no room for the vast mid-range of occupations. Argh! _Beats head against desk_ The point is not to pretend that there are only two occupations. Do you really think I’m stupid, or are you merely trying to annoy me. If so, you are succeeding. The point is to note that physical work is decreasing, and intensive mental work increasing, and that humans are not adapting in any physical manner to that. Thus, people on the low-end of the education and/or intelligence scale find getting work harder than they used to. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-rite-or-due-math-buti-shud-grag-no-gradyu-no-get-teh-dipolma-neway/343803/46 "2006-02-10T20:43:59Z")
> [@Mindfield](#): > > because you can’t!\* > > Fuck, it ain’t hard. > > 1. Pay attention in school. > 2. Pass the test. > 3. ??? > 4. PROFIT! You forgot #5- speak ENGLISH at home and to your compadres, so as to have some chance of understanding a test based in English. Some kids apparently have spent many years here and still have very poor english skills. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-rite-or-due-math-buti-shud-grag-no-gradyu-no-get-teh-dipolma-neway/343803/47 "2006-02-10T21:06:03Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > Do you really think I’m stupid, or are you merely trying to annoy me. Neither, really. Your opinion seemed based an inordinately convenient and improbably conjunction of half-ideas that I jus’ couldn’t he’p myself. Had you employed only one, or perhaps even two, of that bevy of logical shortcuts, I very likely wouldn’t a said a word. My apologies for annoying you. I had actually intended to place just such a disclaimer at the bottom of my post, but, well, I hadda run off and kill something. In this case, the dread amplifier spec, rather than some beast of prey. Sorry 'bout that, friend. ---
**Author:** ![Mindfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mindfield/32/19759_2.png) [@Mindfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mindfield)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-rite-or-due-math-buti-shud-grag-no-gradyu-no-get-teh-dipolma-neway/343803/48 "2006-02-10T21:23:44Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You forgot #5- speak ENGLISH at home and to your compadres, so as to have some chance of understanding a test based in English. Some kids apparently have spent many years here and still have very poor english skills. If you are referring to those with accents, I can only agree to an extent. Most ESL students will never lose their accents, especially if they arrived here in their late pre-teens or early teens when they have already become proficient in their native language and find it more difficult to learn a new one. Most of those will have gone to schools that specialize in ESL students though, so that’s largely irrelevant to the subject at hand. If you’re referring to first-language (or at least dual language, referring to those who came here young and/or were raised from a young age to speak both languages simultaneously) students then I fully agree. It’s one thing if you want to act illiterate online by using juvenile shorthand (u no?) but leave it on the internet. Actually, if you’re graduating, start speaking like a human being _wherever_ you are. And if you can’t pass the test because you still can’t spell, you’re not ready for the real world. And if you’re going to blame the fact that you can’t spell on the school, you’re not even ready for your own grade. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-rite-or-due-math-buti-shud-grag-no-gradyu-no-get-teh-dipolma-neway/343803/49 "2006-02-10T22:09:26Z")
> [@Mindfield](#): > > If you are referring to those with accents, I can only agree to an extent. Most ESL students will never lose their accents, especially if they arrived > If you’re referring to first-language (or at least dual language, referring to those who came here young and/or were raised from a young age to speak both languages simultaneously) students then I fully agree And if you can’t pass the test because you still can’t spell, you’re not ready for the real world. And if you’re going to blame the fact that you can’t spell on the school, you’re not even ready for your own grade. Accents are fine. Accents can be your link to your culture. Accents won’t make you fail a written test. No, what I am talking about is those families (mostly from Mexico) that arrive here, and speak nothing but Spanish at home, and often even work- and their kids speak Spanish to their friends at school. Thus, they never really establish a proficiency in English. Mostly, they are too lazy to try and speak English at home, at work and with their friends. Most of the kids who failed speak Spanish at home. ---
**Author:** ![rayh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@rayh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rayh)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-rite-or-due-math-buti-shud-grag-no-gradyu-no-get-teh-dipolma-neway/343803/50 "2006-02-10T23:35:09Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Here’s the CAHSEE rubric: > > [http://score.rims.k12.ca.us/sub\_standards/Scoring\_Guide\_Essay.html](http://score.rims.k12.ca.us/sub_standards/Scoring_Guide_Essay.html) > > As you can see, even a top level paper can have a few errors. > [@the above link](#): > > Persuasive compositions: > > ``` > * **authoritarvely** defends a position with precise and relevant evidence and convincingly addresses the readers concerns, biases, and expectations.[bolding mine] > > ``` Authoritarvely? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f07891/32.png) [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Plastic_Ninja)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2006, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-rite-or-due-math-buti-shud-grag-no-gradyu-no-get-teh-dipolma-neway/343803/51 "2006-02-11T00:06:51Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > Tests can conceivably be culturally discriminatory, I think, by making tests that presuppose knowledge of activites that poorer minority populations generally lack. I saw an example once, it was some kind of “which sentence is wrong” type question, and it was all sentences about regattas and yachts and such. I wish I could remember it better, but I do recall thinking it would be a harder question to answer if you weren’t familiar with yacht clubs and such, and could have simply been re-written to greatly minimize that type of problem. I recall an example from back when I was about 6, taking an IQ test. We were supposed to match up the word to the picture. I’d grown up in Texas and Florida, taking the test in Florida in the mid-80s. The word I was stuck on was ‘toboggan’. I had no freaking clue what a toboggan was. I’d never seen a toboggan. It sounded like some sort of weird monster. ---
**Author:** ![zagloba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/977dab/32.png) [@zagloba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zagloba)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2006, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-rite-or-due-math-buti-shud-grag-no-gradyu-no-get-teh-dipolma-neway/343803/52 "2006-02-11T02:04:52Z")
> [@Little Plastic Ninja](#): > > taking the test in Florida in the mid-80s. Year or temperature? ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2006, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-rite-or-due-math-buti-shud-grag-no-gradyu-no-get-teh-dipolma-neway/343803/53 "2006-02-11T02:08:26Z")
I haven’t found online examples from California’s High School Exit Exam. [Here](http://www.doe.mass.edu/mcas/student/2005/question.asp?GradeID=10&SubjectCode=ela&QuestionTypeName=Writing%20Prompt&QuestionID=3365#) are examples from Massachusetts’ MCAS Grade 10 Writing test. Read the low scoring responses and tell me if you honestly think the student should receive a diploma? As in many states, the student will have numerous chances to pass this test before their senior year. ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2006, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-rite-or-due-math-buti-shud-grag-no-gradyu-no-get-teh-dipolma-neway/343803/54 "2006-02-11T02:16:29Z")
> [@Nocturne](#): > > If I remember correctly, that was a vocabulary question asking what a regatta actually was. A lot of people I know, even well-read ones, have never even heard of a regatta. > > I work for a company teaching for standardized tests, and the R&D department recruited me to go through several standardized test modules for grades 3-10 to look for a number of things, one of which was cultural/ethnic/gender bias. Examples like the “regatta” one were provided as a yardstick. 🙂 Here is what the Wikipedia article says about the regatta question: A famous example of alleged bias in SAT testing on the SAT I, and cited by commentators from both ends of the political spectrum (Don’t Believe the Hype, Chideya, 1995; The Bell Curve, Hernstein and Murray, 1994 [1]), has been the oarsman-regatta analogy question. The object of the question was to find the pair of terms that have the relationship most similar to the relationship between “runner” and “marathon”. The answer, between “oarsman” and “regatta”, came under fire. The question relies upon students knowing the meaning of the two terms, referring to a sport popular only among those of relatively high-income. According to one source, while 53% of white students correctly answered the question, only 22% of black students did. [2] Chideya (1995) cites also an analogy involving the terms dividend and stockholder. However, it should be noted that the black - white gap in average scores on the SAT I math section (104 points as of 2004), which is less susceptible to charges of cultural bias, was even greater than the gap in the verbal section (98 points).(Data on score gap from table in Black Issues in Higher Education, September 23, 2004 [3]) [Cite](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT_college_entrance_test) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2006, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-rite-or-due-math-buti-shud-grag-no-gradyu-no-get-teh-dipolma-neway/343803/55 "2006-02-11T02:30:03Z")
> [@dalej42](#): > > [Here](http://www.doe.mass.edu/mcas/student/2005/question.asp?GradeID=10&SubjectCode=ela&QuestionTypeName=Writing%20Prompt&QuestionID=3365#) are examples from Massachusetts’ MCAS Grade 10 Writing test. Read the low scoring responses and tell me if you honestly think the student should receive a diploma? As in many states, the student will have numerous chances to pass this test before their senior year. Oh, dear Lord, read the essay that scored a 1 on the Standard English Conventions test. Not only should this kid not have graduated high school, he shouldn’t have been admitted in the first place! ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2006, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-rite-or-due-math-buti-shud-grag-no-gradyu-no-get-teh-dipolma-neway/343803/56 "2006-02-11T02:32:38Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Accents are fine. Accents can be your link to your culture. Accents won’t make you fail a written test. > > No, what I am talking about is those families (mostly from Mexico) that arrive here, and speak nothing but Spanish at home, and often even work- and their kids speak Spanish to their friends at school. Thus, they never really establish a proficiency in English. Mostly, they are too lazy to try and speak English at home, at work and with their friends. Most of the kids who failed speak Spanish at home. Change “try and” to “try to.” 😉 (Can’t help it. Nitpicking is my life’s work.) On a more serious note: one of my other jobs on the college campus involves reading and scoring assessment tests–essays which help us to place the incoming student into the appropriate English or AMLA class. Here are a few things we can discern about many prospective students from their writing samples: 1. They don’t read. 2. Some have learning disorders which may have gone undiagnosed. 3. Some have been speaking English for a long time but have “concretized” errors–habitual problems. 4. Some are the only English speakers in their households. 5. Some ESL students are far better at English than the native speakers are. 6. Some have no idea that writing academically is not like writing a text message to your friends. I’d reiterate #1 several times. It’s probably more of an issue than the others, overall. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2006, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-rite-or-due-math-buti-shud-grag-no-gradyu-no-get-teh-dipolma-neway/343803/57 "2006-02-11T03:27:57Z")
> [@dalej42](#): > > …examples from Massachusetts’ MCAS Grade 10 Writing test. Read the low scoring responses and tell me if you honestly think the student should receive a diploma? As in many states, the student will have numerous chances to pass this test before their senior year. Ok, but before I have a look, what’s the cutoff for passing the exam? 1? 3? 5? ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2006, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-rite-or-due-math-buti-shud-grag-no-gradyu-no-get-teh-dipolma-neway/343803/58 "2006-02-11T03:37:12Z")
**vivalostwages** --is that true of all newly immigrated students–ie, Asians, Indians, Africans? I am curious. the newest immigrants that I work with (Nigerians, Ghanians) seem to have incredible work ethics and education priorities. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2006, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-rite-or-due-math-buti-shud-grag-no-gradyu-no-get-teh-dipolma-neway/343803/59 "2006-02-11T03:40:13Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Oh, dear Lord, read the essay that scored a 1 on the Standard English Conventions test. Not only should this kid not have graduated high school, he shouldn’t have been admitted in the first place! Well, you can tell that s/he did at least get exposed to the book-they seem to be familiar with the plot points, anyway. Is that all one sentence–the essay, I mean? Looking at this stuff makes me want to pull the covers over my head and just not deal with the world. What a fucking mountain for that kid to climb, his teachers to climb, his future employer to climb. ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2006, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-rite-or-due-math-buti-shud-grag-no-gradyu-no-get-teh-dipolma-neway/343803/60 "2006-02-11T03:44:17Z")
> [@Measure for Measure](#): > > Ok, but before I have a look, what’s the cutoff for passing the exam? 1? 3? 5? It varies from state to state. Most times, the papers will be read two or three times. A paper which has received a score of one from two or more readers would be a failing paper in every state I’ve ever worked with. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-rite-or-due-math-buti-shud-grag-no-gradyu-no-get-teh-dipolma-neway/343803.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-rite-or-due-math-buti-shud-grag-no-gradyu-no-get-teh-dipolma-neway/343803.md?page=4)