# I can't stop with LOTR questions, sorry **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth\ **Created:** [March 20, 2019, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-stop-with-lotr-questions-sorry/831400 "2019-03-20T01:19:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2019, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-stop-with-lotr-questions-sorry/831400/21 "2019-03-25T17:06:17Z")
Right. D&D magic is described as “Vancian” and has been from the beginning. That was Jack Vance’s influence. They were also very familiar with a lot of other series, many of which I have on my bookshelves, that aren’t on younger people’s radar. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2019, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-stop-with-lotr-questions-sorry/831400/22 "2019-03-25T17:14:24Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > As you note, the concept of the wizard in D&D (or the “magic-user” as the class was originally known 😃 ) looks pretty different from Tolkien’s wizards. Gygax and his fellow gamers and designers drew on a lot of fantasy sources for D&D, and while Tolkien was, generally, a major influence on the game, magic use in the game owes more to authors like Jack Vance (particularly his [Dying Earth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dying_Earth) stories), L. Sprague de Camp and Fletcher Pratt (their Harold Shea stories), and Robert E. Howard (Conan), among others. Gygax wrote a pretty scathing review of Tolkien in one of the Dragon magazines. Didn’t stop Gygax from appropriating Tolkien’s ideas, though. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2019, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-stop-with-lotr-questions-sorry/831400/23 "2019-03-25T18:04:08Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > Gygax wrote a pretty scathing review of Tolkien in one of the Dragon magazines. Didn’t stop Gygax from appropriating Tolkien’s ideas, though. Gygax and TSR had also, early on in D&D’s history, faced a lawsuit from the Tolkien estate over the use of certain names in D&D which were directly traceable to Tolkien’s writings. As a result, TSR changed certain names in the game (e.g., hobbits became halflings, ents became treants, etc.). It’s been theorized (though I don’t know if there’s anything to the theory) that Gygax wrote such articles about Tolkien in an attempt to distance the game from further allegations of similarities. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2019, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-stop-with-lotr-questions-sorry/831400/24 "2019-03-25T18:56:01Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > For one example, that’s pretty much what Mickey Mouse does in _Fantasia_ (1940), so that image has been around for a long time. > [@kenobi\_65](#): > > As you note, the concept of the wizard in D&D (or the “magic-user” as the class was originally known 😃 ) looks pretty different from Tolkien’s wizards. Gygax and his fellow gamers and designers drew on a lot of fantasy sources for D&D, and while Tolkien was, generally, a major influence on the game, magic use in the game owes more to authors like Jack Vance (particularly his [Dying Earth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dying_Earth) stories), L. Sprague de Camp and Fletcher Pratt (their Harold Shea stories), and Robert E. Howard (Conan), among others. > [@Chimera](#): > > Right. D&D magic is described as “Vancian” and has been from the beginning. That was Jack Vance’s influence. They were also very familiar with a lot of other series, many of which I have on my bookshelves, that aren’t on younger people’s radar. Thanks, that’s what I was looking for! ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2019, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-stop-with-lotr-questions-sorry/831400/25 "2019-03-26T06:29:38Z")
> [@Balance](#): > > Not really; they’re pretty clearly based on the stories of the Koschei, an antagonist figure in Slavic folklore who hid his soul (or his heart, in some versions) in an elaborately concealed object so that he could not be killed. The same character was likely the inspiration for liches in D&D. It’s not specific to Slavic folklore. A lot of tales have the antagonist’s (ogre or such) heart or soul hidden away and the protagonist must seek it out to defeat him. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2019, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-stop-with-lotr-questions-sorry/831400/26 "2019-03-26T08:55:48Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > It’s not specific to Slavic folklore. A lot of tales have the antagonist’s (ogre or such) heart or soul hidden away and the protagonist must seek it out to defeat him. It’s Aarne–Thompson–Uther Type [302](http://www.mftd.org/index.php?action=atu&act=select&atu=302), “The Giant Without A Heart”, but do you know of any such stories that _predate_ Koschei The Deathless (17th C. minimum)? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2019, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-stop-with-lotr-questions-sorry/831400/27 "2019-03-26T17:18:30Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I thought the root of all evil was mimes. And the very worst of these were the Mimes of Moria, renowned and feared throughout the Hithaeglir for their terrifying and fearful “Invisible Walking Against The Wind Box”. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2019, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-stop-with-lotr-questions-sorry/831400/28 "2019-03-26T17:31:32Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It’s Aarne–Thompson–Uther Type [302](http://www.mftd.org/index.php?action=atu&act=select&atu=302), “The Giant Without A Heart”, but do you know of any such stories that _predate_ Koschei The Deathless (17th C. minimum)? JRR Tolkien and Katharine Briggs have both written on the separable soul, which often takes the form of a heart. It’s a very old idea. > [@Tolkien](#): > > None the less this detail is plainly only a secondary use of an ancient and very widespread folk lore notion, which does occur in fairy-stories; the notion that the life or strength of a man or creature may reside in some other place or thing; or in some part of the body (especially the heart) that can be detached and hidden in a bag, or under a stone, or in an egg. At one end of recorded folk-lore history this idea was used by George MacDonald in his fairy-story The Giant’s Heart, which derives this central motive (as well as many other details) from well-known traditional tales. At the other end, indeed in what is probably one of the oldest stories in writing, it occurs in The Tale of the Two Brothers on the Egyptian D’Orsigny papyrus. [Link](http://brainstorm-services.com/wcu-2004/fairystories-tolkien.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2019, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-stop-with-lotr-questions-sorry/831400/29 "2019-03-26T18:13:22Z")
“The Tale of the Two Brothers” has some parallels, but it is much closer to the story of Osiris, as the tale of a person who is resurrected by a relative collecting body parts. The multi-part soul of Egyptian mythology also complicates the parallels; I believe that the story is focused on the _ba_, rather than the _ka_, because of its theme of royal succession. I feel that the connection to the trope we’re discussing is tenuous–more an example of a similar pattern of human thought than of a mythological tradition. That’s not to say that I believe the tale of the Koschei is the earliest example of the trope. I think it is, however, a widespread and well-documented example, set in a time and place that position it favorably for influencing modern stories. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2019, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-stop-with-lotr-questions-sorry/831400/30 "2019-03-27T02:55:17Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > And the very worst of these were the Mimes of Moria, renowned and feared throughout the Hithaeglir for their terrifying and fearful “Invisible Walking Against The Wind Box”. There is a special place reserved for you upon Death. Just sayin’ 😛 ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2019, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-stop-with-lotr-questions-sorry/831400/31 "2019-03-27T03:25:58Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > There is a special place reserved for you upon Death. Just sayin’ 😛 At the bottom of the invisible stairs? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2019, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-stop-with-lotr-questions-sorry/831400/32 "2019-03-27T05:24:39Z")
> [@Balance](#): > > “The Tale of the Two Brothers” has some parallels, but it is much closer to the story of Osiris, as the tale of a person who is resurrected by a relative collecting body parts. The multi-part soul of Egyptian mythology also complicates the parallels; I believe that the story is focused on the _ba_, rather than the _ka_, because of its theme of royal succession. I feel that the connection to the trope we’re discussing is tenuous–more an example of a similar pattern of human thought than of a mythological tradition. > > That’s not to say that I believe the tale of the Koschei is the earliest example of the trope. I think it is, however, a widespread and well-documented example, set in a time and place that position it favorably for influencing modern stories. All of this. I don’t doubt there’s stories predating Koschei, either, but I would like specific examples. The Egyptian story isn’t it - it’s, in essence, the \*opposite \*of the trope - the displaced heart is used to resurrect a loved one, not kill a monster. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2019, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-stop-with-lotr-questions-sorry/831400/33 "2019-03-27T14:24:58Z")
So did Saruman have to “die” to become Saruman the White, like Gandalf? If Gandalf had died in some other way than defeating the Balrog, would he not have “graduated” to Gandalf the White? Like, he proved himself maybe by defeating the Balrog, so he got to come back? Did one of the Blues become Dumbledore? (I joke on that last one) ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2019, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-stop-with-lotr-questions-sorry/831400/34 "2019-03-27T14:26:45Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > Did one of the Blues become Dumbledore? (I joke on that last one) One of them became Harry…wait, actually, it was a Nazgûl that became harry, that’s why Hagrid says “Yer a lizard, Harry!” ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2019, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-stop-with-lotr-questions-sorry/831400/35 "2019-03-27T14:31:16Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > So did Saruman have to “die” to become Saruman the White, like Gandalf? If Gandalf had died in some other way than defeating the Balrog, would he not have “graduated” to Gandalf the White? Like, he proved himself maybe by defeating the Balrog, so he got to come back? Did one of the Blues become Dumbledore? (I joke on that last one) Saruman started out as Saruman the White - he was the most skillful of the Istari, and recognized as their leader. When Gandalf was reborn, he became Gandalf the White because Saruman had (in effect) resigned his position, by allying with Sauron. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2019, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-stop-with-lotr-questions-sorry/831400/36 "2019-03-27T14:38:29Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > So did Saruman have to “die” to become Saruman the White, like Gandalf? Saruman was always nicknamed “The White,” like Gandalf was “The Grey,” and Radagast was “The Brown.” There’s no indication his physical body died anytime before we first hear of him. However, when we see him for the first time in his confrontation with Gandalf he is wearing robes that are “woven from all colors,” and he calls himself “Saruman of Many Colours.” When he is killed by Grima his spirit just disperses rather than being reincarnated. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2019, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-stop-with-lotr-questions-sorry/831400/37 "2019-03-27T14:38:47Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > So did Saruman have to “die” to become Saruman the White, like Gandalf? If Gandalf had died in some other way than defeating the Balrog, would he not have “graduated” to Gandalf the White? Like, he proved himself maybe by defeating the Balrog, so he got to come back? Did one of the Blues become Dumbledore? (I joke on that last one) No to all. Saruman had probably always been “the White,” or, at least, from the time that the Istari were first sent to Middle-Earth. He was widely considered to be the most powerful of the wizards, though at least a few elves (like Cirdan and Galadriel) felt that Gandalf was wiser. Gandalf returned from death (presumably, sent back by the Valar) because his role – to help the people of Middle-Earth against Sauron – wasn’t yet completed, and because, unlike Saruman, he’d stayed true to that mission. Being reborn as “the White” was both a recognition of Saruman’s abandonment of that mission (and the title, as he did tell Gandalf that he was no longer simply “Saruman the White”), and an acknowledgement of his becoming the chief of the Istari. ---
**Author:** ![Airk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Airk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airk)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2019, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-stop-with-lotr-questions-sorry/831400/38 "2019-03-27T14:56:14Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Gandalf returned from death (presumably, sent back by the Valar) I’m pretty sure someone has built a pretty coherent case for Gandalf actually having been sent back by Eru, the One instead of by the Valar, but I don’t remember the reasoning right now. =/ ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2019, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-stop-with-lotr-questions-sorry/831400/39 "2019-03-27T15:01:30Z")
After defeating the Balrog, did Gandalf actually die, or was he merely “disrobed”? Is it even meaningful to talk of death for Maiar? Did Gandalf go to the Halls of Mandos? Or any other place in Valinor? Willingly or not? Did he consult with any Valar? Or Eru? On his return did his power increase or only his authority? By what means did he return? Ship or bird? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2019, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-stop-with-lotr-questions-sorry/831400/40 "2019-03-27T16:34:58Z")
The Ainur are mentioned to “dress” in bodies like the Children of Eru. The Istari, by begin dressed, submitted to being diminished in power, wisdom and understanding. Gandalf’s body would really be nothing more than a covering of his spirit nature. At the death of Gandalf’s body, he is taken out of time and thought. The fact he’s beyond time specifically means he’s been moved out of Arda and so could only be rebodied and restored by Eru. His restoration always seemed to me to be a renewed sense of the innate knowledge of the world that an Ainur would have and a loosening of rules of engagement he was bound by. As to how he came back, he seems to have simply been reincarnated on the peak of Celebdil, where he’s found by Gwaihir. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-stop-with-lotr-questions-sorry/831400.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-cant-stop-with-lotr-questions-sorry/831400.md?page=3)