# "I could care less" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 27, 2014, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-could-care-less/696622 "2014-08-27T11:49:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Killing\_Time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/76d3ee/32.png) [@Killing\_Time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Killing_Time)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-could-care-less/696622/261 "2014-09-01T19:02:19Z")
Fallacy: Appeal to authority > [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Killing Time, have you studied linguistics? Have you? > [@](#): > > What do you know about the typical ways in which meanings, pronunciations, grammatical patterns, etc. change in languages? What do YOU know about it? > [@](#): > > (Again, the fact that you speak a language doesn’t make you an expert in linguistics.) Nor does it make YOU one. > [@](#): > > There have been several possible etymologies for “I could care less” proposed in this thread. None of them are utterly impossible, but a knowledge of linguistics shows that some of them are more probable than others. No it doesn’t. > [@](#): > > The fact that one of those proposed etymologies seems to you to be much simpler doesn’t prove anything. Again, something that seems simple to you might seem convoluted to other people. In the case of trying to sort out the possible etymologies for “I could care less,” it’s better to trust the research of linguists rather than your personal feelings about what’s simple. You haven’t provided any “research of linguists” to support your position. I believe someone posted something from the “wiki dictionary” or some such nonsense. It was open-sourced, which means literally ANYONE can submit an etymology. You haven’t made your case at all, and the fact that you believe you have authority on your side is laughable. ---
**Author:** ![Killing\_Time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/76d3ee/32.png) [@Killing\_Time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Killing_Time)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-could-care-less/696622/262 "2014-09-01T19:07:06Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I’m not set on any one theory. I lean towards it being an ironic subversion of the phrase. I personally think it’s more likely someone originally used the phrase intentionally (or at least repeated it intentionally) and it caught on, versus speakers mishearing the phrase and there becoming a wide-spread idiom catching on without anyone realizing an important negative particle central to the literal meaning is missing. > > I can’t completely discount the sarcasm theory, though. I do notice a slightly different stress pattern to the way I say “I could care less” vs a “straight” reading, with extra emphasis on “care” and “less.” That said, it’s not the usual sarcastic tone. **Panache45** in post #61 claims that in the 60s, the phrase originally was intoned with sarcasm and dropped this intonation over time. Now, I don’t know how accurate the reporting is, but that reflects more how I’d guess (and remember, we’re all just guessing at this point), the phrase developed: as irony, although not necessarily sarcastic. If we had recorded instances of the phrase being used in speech during the 60s as the phrase transitioned from “I couldn’t care less” to “I could care less” that would give us more data on what the true etymology of the phrase was. Was it straight up sarcasm? Was it just ironic humor? Was it an implied “[as if] I could care less”? Was it simply a mindless mistake repeated? Or was it something else? Sorry to be blunt, but you’re just talking out of both sides of your mouth. I’m tempted to ask you exactly what the distinction is that you are making between “ironic” and “sarcastic”, but I’m really just tired of wasting my time with you. What you’re writing feels disingenuous to me, like you don’t really have a position and just want to take the position contrary to someone else for the sake of argument alone. ---
**Author:** ![Killing\_Time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/76d3ee/32.png) [@Killing\_Time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Killing_Time)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-could-care-less/696622/263 "2014-09-01T19:14:06Z")
> [@eburacum45](#): > > I have given four different possible mechanisms for the evolution of this phrase; why do you doggedly accept one and dismiss the others, especially those proposed by linguistic experts? Do you actually want to dismiss users of this phrase as ‘morons’? If so, why? I sure hope this wasn’t directed at me, because I never said users of the phrase were morons. I believe someone ELSE, not me, referred to REPEATING something uttered by a moron. So first of all, repeating something uttered by a moron does not make you a moron. Second, there was obviously some hyperbole being employed there. I doubt he meant anyone was literally a moron. You are being FAR, FAR too literal here, which is odd for someone who champions a phrase that is anything but literal. What are these “four mechanisms”? I am aware of several of you arguing that “could care less” is deliberately sarcastic. I find this line of reasoning dubious, and have explained why over and over again. So if you didn’t get it, you’ll just have to read the thread. I’m not aware of these alleged other 3 “mechanisms”. I’m guessing they’re not far off from the “sarcasm” angle, but please feel free to elaborate it that’s not true. ---
**Author:** ![Killing\_Time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/76d3ee/32.png) [@Killing\_Time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Killing_Time)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-could-care-less/696622/264 "2014-09-01T19:24:24Z")
If you guys really want to play the appeal to authority on the internet game, fine. I’ll play along. Here ya’ go: [http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/care.html](http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/care.html) Paul Brians, Professor Emeritus of English: > [@](#): > > Clichés are especially prone to scrambling because they become meaningless through overuse. In this case an expression which originally meant “it would be impossible for me to care less than I do because I do not care at all” is rendered senseless by being transformed into the now-common “I could care less.” Think about it: if you could care less, that means you care some. The original already drips sarcasm, so it’s pointless to argue that the newer version is “ironic.” People who misuse this phrase are just being careless. > [@](#): > > People who use the shortened form are often convinced they are right because they are being “ironic” and some even claim it’s the original form. But here’s the entry in The American Heritage Dictionary of Idioms: > This expression originated about 1940 in Britain and for a time invariably used couldn’t. About 1960 could was occasionally substituted, and today both versions are used with approximately equal frequency, despite their being antonyms. > “I could care less” just isn’t logically ironic. The people speaking feel irony, but their words don’t convey it. “I’d buy those jeans” could be ironic if you really meant the opposite: you wouldn’t buy those jeans if they were the last pair in the world. But “I could care less” isn’t used to imply its opposite: that you care more. Thus it is not ironic. > “Couldn’t care less” is a strong statement because it says you don’t care at all, zero! > “Could care less,” whatever meaning you take it to have, does not have that crucial message of zero interest which gives the original saying its sting. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-could-care-less/696622/265 "2014-09-01T19:46:16Z")
> [@Killing\_Time](#): > > Sorry to be blunt, but you’re just talking out of both sides of your mouth. I’m tempted to ask you exactly what the distinction is that you are making between “ironic” and “sarcastic”, but I’m really just tired of wasting my time with you. What you’re writing feels disingenuous to me, like you don’t really have a position and just want to take the position contrary to someone else for the sake of argument alone. I’m sorry you feel that way. I don’t know why you’re being so hostile, or why you feel that everyone is adopting a devil’s advocate type position for shits and giggles. I certainly don’t have a reputation here or anywhere as someone who enjoys argument for argument’s sake. I guarantee you I’m being completely sincere with my thoughts. I would appreciate it if you would stop casting aspersions on posters here and what their mindset is in regards to this topic. As for irony vs sarcasm, the distinction I’m making is one of tone. The phrase “I could care less” is clearly ironic–the meaning is the opposite of the literal. But it’s not necessarily said with sarcasm. Sarcasm contains an element of mocking and contempt to it. Irony need not. If you don’t want to make the distinction, that’s fine with me. It doesn’t change my point at all that the GQ answer is that we really don’t know exactly what path this phrase took, and that there are four possible theories offered up by linguists and other language experts. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-could-care-less/696622/266 "2014-09-01T20:01:17Z")
> [@Killing\_Time](#): > > What are these “four mechanisms”? I am aware of several of you arguing that “could care less” is deliberately sarcastic. I find this line of reasoning dubious, and have explained why over and over again. So if you didn’t get it, you’ll just have to read the thread. I’m not aware of these alleged other 3 “mechanisms”. I’m guessing they’re not far off from the “sarcasm” angle, but please feel free to elaborate it that’s not true. Have you actually read through this thread? Serious question, because this response and the response to **Wendell** (who mentions in this thread his linguistic credentials–he’s got a master’s in it) make it seem to me like you are the one who is arguing for the sake of argument alone. And there have been plenty of links in this thread to respected linguists discussing the possible paths for this phrase’s evolution. UPenn’s “Language Log” blog is a particularly interesting read in this regard. But, in case you are being sincere and just missed it, it’s neatly numbered for you in post #193 in this thread. One of the other three mechanisms is the one you propose–simple repetition of an error. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-could-care-less/696622/267 "2014-09-01T20:02:48Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Of course it’s semantically correct. I was referring to “I’m good”, and no, as a response to “how are you?” it is NOT semantically correct, for the reasons I’ve already indicated – it doesn’t mean what the speaker thinks it does. The difference between an adjective and an adverb in this context is significant. It’s like the difference between “I feel bad” (remorseful or unwell) and the regrettably all too common “I feel badly” (apparently incompetent at sexual groping). Consider the perfectly acceptable phrase “I feel hot”. Would you say “I feel hotly” anywhere outside the context of the degree of arousal caused by groping? I can’t wait for the linguistic freethinkers to inform me that either form is acceptable, because, well, because what the hell! 😃 > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > And why on earth would you say “I could care less” isn’t an idiom? Because it isn’t. Or at least, “colloquialism” fits the bill much better. “Couldn’t care less” certainly isn’t an idiom, it’s an expression. Its incorrect variant is an aberration of the expression, apparently regional, which is just what a colloquialism is. I’ve never seen “could care less” in any listings of common idioms; maybe you have. An idiom is most commonly an expression that draws a parallel with a figurative situation, like “letting the cat out of the bag”, “spilling the beans”, or “fit as a fiddle” and isn’t meant to be taken literally because one is supposed to understand the parallel. It’s true that it can also refer to stylistic usage, but “colloquialism” seems a much better fit for this particular thing. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-could-care-less/696622/268 "2014-09-01T20:08:33Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I’ve never seen “could care less” in any listings of common idioms; maybe you have. Well, [here you go](http://books.google.com/books?id=m7le7O8KAEwC&pg=PT195&lpg=PT195&dq=common+american+idioms+%22could+care+less%22&source=bl&ots=lmUREVq2gX&sig=m7aZIH_D5FpdgdJTwakIsKBeCfk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=sdEEVJ2RN9O7ggSc64LYBw&ved=0CB0Q6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=common%20american%20idioms%20%22could%20care%20less%22&f=false). Also, [here](http://books.google.com/books?id=pqlRO2jdI2gC&pg=PA206&dq=idioms+%22could+care+less%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=HNMEVPewG9iNNvv2gIAN&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAzgK#v=onepage&q=idioms%20%22could%20care%20less%22&f=false). I’ve never heard it not being considered an idiom. I mean, yes, it’s colloquial, but it’s also an idiom. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-could-care-less/696622/269 "2014-09-01T20:23:51Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I was referring to “I’m good”, and no, as a response to “how are you?” it is NOT semantically correct, for the reasons I’ve already indicated – it doesn’t mean what the speaker thinks it does. The difference between an adjective and an adverb in this context is significant. Just to be clear, you’re saying that in the phrase, “I’m well,” “well” is an adverb, right? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-could-care-less/696622/270 "2014-09-01T20:56:50Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Just to be clear, you’re saying that in the phrase, “I’m well,” “well” is an adverb, right? Nice try at a gotcha, and point taken as I was thinking ahead to the other examples I gave where the adjective and adverb forms convey entirely different meanings. In this case, both “good” and “well” are adjectives but they are adjectives with likewise entirely different meanings, which is why “good” is wrong. It implies a skill or moral quality, while “well” implies a state of health. It’s a parallel with the examples I gave, though not because it’s a different part of speech. I suppose I should at least be grateful that no one has yet come along suggesting that “I feel badly” is perfectly correct! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-could-care-less/696622/271 "2014-09-01T20:59:55Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Nice try at a gotcha, and point taken as I was thinking ahead to the other examples I gave where the adjective and adverb forms convey entirely different meanings. In this case, both “good” and “well” are adjectives but they are adjectives with likewise entirely different meanings, which is why “good” is wrong. It implies a skill or moral quality, while “well” implies a state of health. It’s a parallel with the examples I gave, though not because it’s a different part of speech. > > I suppose I should at least be grateful that no one has yet come along suggesting that “I feel badly” is perfectly correct! 😛 “I’m good” is fine. Even [Grammar Girl](http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/good-versus-well) (whom you cited before) agrees. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-could-care-less/696622/272 "2014-09-01T21:13:26Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > The phrase “I could care less” is clearly ironic–the meaning is the opposite of the literal. No. Both of your claims here are incorrect. The meaning of “I could care less” is _not_ the opposite of the literal meaning. \*The literal meaning of “I could care less” is “I care some small amount.” \* The opposite of that literal is “I care some amount _other than_ a small amount.” How could such a statement (“I care some amount other than a small amount”) possibly be considered to be “clearly ironic”? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-could-care-less/696622/273 "2014-09-01T21:28:07Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > “I’m good” is fine. Even [Grammar Girl](http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/good-versus-well) (whom you cited before) agrees. My quick reading of it is that Grammar Girl, as befits the name, appears to be justifying the usage on grammatical grounds. It _ **is** _ grammatically correct – I already said that. But unless you’re describing your golf or poker skills or your personal virtue, it’s _ **not** _ semantically correct, though obviously very common usage, and I’m sure I’ve said it myself conversationally. What I object to is the _Economist_ writer – or GG – implying that it is _ **unreservedly** _ correct, because it is not. I have to say as an aside that I love language as much as anyone here, and I love playing with its creative expressiveness. But familiarity with the historical challenges of trying to get a handle on the formalisms, particularly in the area of machine translation, has left me with little patience for some of its gratuitous stupidities. No one begrudges the fact that most common idioms require experiential context to understand – something that creates huge challenges for machine translation – but to that I say: tough! Suck it up! Idioms enrich our language, and natural language is for humans, so we get to control it. But some level of formal consistency applies to human comprehension as well. Sometimes wrong is just wrong, and should be called out and corrected. When usage becomes so muddled that you can drop a negation and end up with exactly the same meaning, you wonder how the hell we ever communicate. And the answer is, sometimes we don’t. When Jimmy Carter went to Poland in 1977 his translator informed his hosts that he had left America forever, but it was all good because he had carnal desire for the Poles and wished to grasp their private parts. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-could-care-less/696622/274 "2014-09-01T21:29:57Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > No. Both of your claims here are incorrect. > > The meaning of “I could care less” is _not_ the opposite of the literal meaning. \*The literal meaning of “I could care less” is “I care some small amount.” \* > The opposite of that literal is “I care some amount _other than_ a small amount.” > > How could such a statement (“I care some amount other than a small amount”) possibly be considered to be “clearly ironic”? That’s not how I hear it/read it. The literal meaning of “I could care less” is “I couldn’t care less.” That seems to be one definition of the “opposite” of the literal meaning to me. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-could-care-less/696622/275 "2014-09-01T21:37:07Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > M > But some level of formal consistency applies to human comprehension as well. Sometimes wrong is just wrong, and should be called out and corrected. I don’t think I would disagree with you there. As I alluded to before, there are plenty of peeves I have when it comes to language. And I personally think there is a usefulness to the push-and-pull between the language connoisseurs and champions of common usage. At the very least, it lets us think about what we are saying more closely, even if popular usage ends up completely ignoring it in the end. My own writing is much more conservative when it comes to the formal sphere. I would _never_ use “I could care less” in that context. That said, I also probably would never use “I couldn’t care less,” either, because, to me, those are both in the colloquial sphere when it comes to diction. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-could-care-less/696622/276 "2014-09-01T21:39:49Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > That’s not how I hear it/read it. The literal meaning of “I could care less” is “I couldn’t care less.” That seems to be one definition of the “opposite” of the literal meaning to me. Sorry. I got that wrong. The meaning of “I could care less,” as an idiom, is “I couldn’t care less.” The literal is that you could care less. So when you are saying “I could care less” in the idiomatic sense, you mean you couldn’t care less. That, to me, falls under the broad brush of irony. You are literally saying that you actually could care a little less, but, really, you couldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-could-care-less/696622/277 "2014-09-01T21:41:20Z")
Killing Time, I have a master’s degree in linguistics. I mentioned that earlier in the thread. You haven’t studied linguistics, right? Take some courses in it and come back when you have some knowledge of the field. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-could-care-less/696622/278 "2014-09-01T21:44:02Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > ``` > I've never seen "could care less" in any listings of common idioms; maybe you have. > > ``` > [@pulykamell](#): > > I’ve never heard it not being considered an idiom. I mean, yes, it’s colloquial, but it’s also an idiom. It’s _not_ considered an idiom, if you accept the definition of “idiom” found in sources such as these: Oxford: > [@](#): > > IDIOM: A group of words established by usage as having a meaning not deducible from those of the individual words (e.g., rain cats and dogs, see the light). > **[Oxford Languages | The Home of Language Data](https://languages.oup.com/)** > > Explore Oxford Languages, the home of world-renowned language data. Merriam-Webster: > [@](#): > > id•i•om noun \ˈi-dē-əm\ : an expression that cannot be understood from the meanings of its separate words but that has a separate meaning of its own > **[Definition of IDIOM](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/idiom)** > > an expression in the usage of a language that is peculiar to itself either in having a meaning that cannot be derived from the conjoined meanings of its elements (such as up in the air for 'undecided') or in its grammatically atypical use of words... [Dictionary.cambridge.org](http://Dictionary.cambridge.org): > [@](#): > > IDIOM: a group of words in a fixed order that have a particular meaning that is different from the meanings of each word on its own: To “have bitten off more than you can chew” is an idiom that means you have tried to do something which is too difficult for you. > **[idiom](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/idiom)** > > 1. a group of words in a fixed order that has a particular meaning that is… “I couldn’t care less” has a very literal meaning (‘I care not at all, less than which there is nothing.’) It’s not the case that the expression “cannot be understood from the meaning of its separate words” (as M-W has it). It’s not an idiomatic expression at all. The same is true of “I could care less.” It has a literal meaning (though neither that meaning nor its opposite is what users intend to convey when they speak or write the phrase). Both phrases or either may appear in “lists of idioms,” but that’s not the same thing as their actually _being_ idioms. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-could-care-less/696622/279 "2014-09-01T21:48:15Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > It’s _not_ considered an idiom, if you accept the definition of “idiom” found in sources such as these: I would say that the meaning of “I could care less” is not deducible from its individual words. Ergo, an “idiom.” If you want to classify it as a “colloquialism,” or an “American saying,” or whatever, please substitute those words. I just haven’t heard any argument before about it being considered an idiomatic use of language. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-could-care-less/696622/280 "2014-09-01T22:25:00Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Can anyone quote (and source) an example of a respected linguist actually _using_ “could care less”–rather than discussing its use? > If respected linguists, or respected English-users of any stripe, _have ever actually used “could care less” to describe their own mental state or the mental state of another person_–as opposed to discussing the usage–then we may rest assured that “could care less” is just as Standard as is “couldn’t care less.” > > Clearly, quoting other speakers would not count as a personal use of the phrase, no more than does opining about the usage itself. The challenge, therefore, is to come up with a documented example of Pinker, Zwicky, Liberman, or any other respected English-language professional using “could care less” _to express their own personal reaction_. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I can’t quote someone using it, because it’s obviously colloquial and not used in formal writing. However, I can quote a respected linguist–[Mark Liberman, Distinguished Professor of Linguistics](http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~myl/), [saying something relevant](http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001201.html): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by Mark Liberman Let me hasten to say that this [disagreement with Pinker’s prosody argument] doesn’t put me in the camp of those who sneer at could care less as foolish and illogical. In fact, I freely admit that I use this phrase myself, and though I’m often foolish and illogical, I don’t take this to be an instance. Instead, I agree with the OED that could care less is just a colloquial phrase, which for whatever reason means essentially the same thing as couldn’t care less. > > [emphasis added]. > > If by “standard” you mean “accepted in formal writing,” I disagree: “couldn’t care less” is marginally more acceptable in formal writing, precisely because of the fluttering hands of the grammatical offenderati. But Liberman clearly suggests there’s nothing wrong with its usage in less formal settings; none of the silly arguments raised about how its meaning is confusing or corruptive appear to be persuasive to him. I quoted a bit more of my original post than you did to show how obvious it was that I was _not_ equating “standard” with “accepted in formal writing.” The transformation of my clear request into a supposed request for “formal writing” examples is, perhaps, one of the more blatant appearances of a straw man argument in this thread. It should be clear to those reading in good faith that I was asking for examples of respected users of English who used the phrase “could care less” to describe their own reactions or the reactions of others, in any setting in which the words of those users might be recorded. Your Liberman citation is not helpful in this regard, as he is clearly merely discussing the usage. A statement by Liberman that the phrase is perfectly fine for people to use and that he uses it himself is in no respect the same thing as _an actual example of him using it himself_. And that is all we have, so far: respected users and experts in English saying it’s fine to use the phrase. What we do _not_ have, so far (save for Bill Clinton) is examples of people like Liberman or Pinker actually using the phrase to express their own state of mind or the state of mind of another. I hope that you will keep trying to find such a citation (for Liberman, Pinker, Zwicky, or for that matter any recent winner of a National Book Award, Man Booker Prize, Pulitzer, or any other well-recognized award). Such people are often interviewed; an interview would be an ideal venue for observing language usage in action. Other potential sources: lectures (whether video or text transcriptions); memoirs of any sort (article, book, etc.); published letters; essays. Again, we are not looking for examples of people like Pinker discussing the usage of “could care less,” or saying that the usage is acceptable, or claiming to use the phrase. We are looking for examples of people like Pinker _actually using the phrase to express their own thoughts._ I wish you luck; frankly I’d like to be able to place at least a small wager on the outcome. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-could-care-less/696622.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-could-care-less/696622.md?page=15)