# I could have beaten Trump, says Obama **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 26, 2016, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-could-have-beaten-trump-says-obama/775669 "2016-12-26T23:11:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-could-have-beaten-trump-says-obama/775669/41 "2016-12-27T15:39:56Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > Hillary came nowhere remotely near that. She didn’t even get a majority of voters, only around 48%, and only around 60% of voters showed up. When you look at eligible American voters, there are 231,556,622, while Hillary got 65,844,610 votes, so she managed to mobilize just 28% of the American people who could vote to vote for her. That’s not a majority, and she is actually a historically unpopular candidate, no matter how much Democrats are pushing the myth that she was actually extremely popular. > > Pointing out that she didn’t even get 1/3 of American voters to vote for her, well short of a majority, isn’t just pointless nitpicking. Democrats were saying the same thing about Gore’s loss to Bush back in 2000, and keeping alive the myth that they were the “Real” choice of the American people and didn’t need to contemplate doing anything different. Once again I ask, as I have everyone who advances this argument, what does it say about Trump, no matter how much you slice, dice, and parse it into whatever statistical dog tricks you want, that he got EVEN LESS votes than she did? (Other than that the electoral system needs to be changed, which probably won’t happen until the fall of America.) This whole thing is a complete non sequitur. The total number of possible voters means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. It’s the total number of actual voters that counts. But even if it did matter in the slightest, Trump was even MORE unpopular overall than Hillary. You cannot change the **fact** that she got more votes than he did, however much you may want to. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-could-have-beaten-trump-says-obama/775669/42 "2016-12-27T15:47:21Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > To what end? It’s funny. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-could-have-beaten-trump-says-obama/775669/43 "2016-12-27T15:48:22Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > …You can’t tell me that if Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton were as Twitter-obsessed that Republicans wouldn’t be all over the immaturity of it. (post shortened) Is it OK for you to attack Trump because you imagine that other people would do the same thing if, maybe, the roles were reversed? Why do you need to fault others to justify your choice? If you want to attack Trump, you’re free to attack Trump. Trying to justify your attack by imagining what others might/maybe/coulda/woulda/shoulda have done seems pointless. IMHO, of course. Meanwhile, the methods of communication certainly have been a-changin’. Trump/Hillary are using social media. Kennedy/Nixon used television. (At least Kennedy did.) Lincoln learned to use the telegraph. The media outlets are pissed/disappointed that candidates, especially Trump, can talk directly to the public without using the media outlets. Life goes on. I wonder what will replace Twitter, and how soon will it get here? ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-could-have-beaten-trump-says-obama/775669/44 "2016-12-27T15:52:19Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Once again I ask, as I have everyone who advances this argument, what does it say about Trump, no matter how much you slice, dice, and parse it into whatever statistical dog tricks you want, that he got EVEN LESS votes than she did? It says that he also failed to mobilize the majority of the American people to anything, but no one was making the claim that he did so I saw no reason to refute an argument that no one is actually making. > [@](#): > > This whole thing is a complete non sequitur. The total number of possible voters means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. It’s the total number of actual voters that counts. It’s not a non-sequitor, because it’s pointing out that a claim made in this thread is factually wrong. If the total number of voters means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, then don’t make false claims about Hillary motivating the majority of the American people - which is the claim I was responding to. I think voter turnout is quite relevant to the claim, since part of motivating people is getting them to turn up and vote, and voter turnout was extremely low overall and especially in states that she expected to win but lost. Also, as I pointed out, Hillary didn’t get a majority of actual voters, so even if we take the “American people” in the claim to be “American voters who did show up”, the claim that she motivated a majority of them is still wrong. She only got 48% of the votes of voters who did show up, which is not actually a majority (that would be over 50%) The argument pattern of ‘Let’s make a false claim, but then say that it’s a non-sequitor for people to point out that the claim is objectively false’ is not a very good one. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-could-have-beaten-trump-says-obama/775669/45 "2016-12-27T15:52:28Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > The total number of possible voters means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. It’s the total number of actual voters that counts. Actually, the total number of votes means absolutely nothing too. It’s the electoral college votes that count. It’s the one place Trump got a majority, and the one place he had to. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-could-have-beaten-trump-says-obama/775669/46 "2016-12-27T15:52:41Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > > > …You can’t tell me that if Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton were as Twitter-obsessed that Republicans wouldn’t be all over the immaturity of it. > > (post shortened) > > Is it OK for you to attack Trump because you imagine that other people would do the same thing if, maybe, the roles were reversed? Why do you need to fault others to justify your choice? If you want to attack Trump, you’re free to attack Trump. Trying to justify your attack by imagining what others might/maybe/coulda/woulda/shoulda have done seems pointless. IMHO, of course. > > Meanwhile, the methods of communication certainly have been a-changin’. Trump/Hillary are using social media. Kennedy/Nixon used television. (At least Kennedy did.) Lincoln learned to use the telegraph. > > The media outlets are pissed/disappointed that candidates, especially Trump, can talk directly to the public without using the media outlets. Life goes on. > > I wonder what will replace Twitter, and how soon will it get here? I don’t see where I’m “attacking Trump”. Instead, I’m trying to point out how he’s using Twitter to respond to perceived insults and provocations rather than doing the stateman-like thing of ignoring them. He tweets about Alec Baldwin’s portrayal of him on SNL within thirty minutes of the sketch appearing on air. How can you think that’s healthy? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-could-have-beaten-trump-says-obama/775669/47 "2016-12-27T15:54:51Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Does it bother anyone else that people (not just **HurricaneDitka** ; I’ve heard the same thing from [other people](http://www.siliconbeat.com/2016/11/28/twitter-delete-donald-trumps-account-fake-news-concerns/)) think that Trump’s Twitter account should be suspended or deleted? > > In less than a month, the man will have access to more direct means of communications, and will have authority over a vast federal bureaucracy, an enormous military and a massive nuclear arsenal, but can’t seem to manage a Twitter account responsibly and maturely. Doesn’t that bother you? It bothers me that the regressive left is so afraid of words and ideas that they consider deplatforming an acceptable strategy to use against their political opponents. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-could-have-beaten-trump-says-obama/775669/48 "2016-12-27T15:58:00Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Once again I ask, as I have everyone who advances this argument, what does it say about Trump, no matter how much you slice, dice, and parse it into whatever statistical dog tricks you want, that he got EVEN LESS votes than she did? (Other than that the electoral system needs to be changed, which probably won’t happen until the fall of America.) > > This whole thing is a complete non sequitur. The total number of possible voters means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. It’s the total number of actual voters that counts. But even if it did matter in the slightest, Trump was even MORE unpopular overall than Hillary. You cannot change the **fact** that she got more votes than he did, however much you may want to. You cannot change the **fact** that Trump won. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-could-have-beaten-trump-says-obama/775669/49 "2016-12-27T16:01:03Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Either way, Clinton lost; what’s better for the Dems to hear: that Clinton lost but others can win, or that Clinton lost and so would anyone else? Yes, this self answering question, plus Obama’s big ego (not that that’s in any way unique for presidents) explain it IMO. You don’t have to assume hostility to Clinton, though it does imply some lack of concern. He could have said nothing, and I don’t see why that would particularly demoralize Democrats since the scenario is so far from reality. If presidents could and customarily did run for third terms the whole dynamic of their second term would be different. If it were still legal but not customary, the person doing it would encounter some negative reaction just for doing it, and the Democrats under Obama are not in the position they were under FDR in 1940. Anyway I also agree, Clinton lost, and there really is no asterisk. One person gets sworn in, the others lost. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-could-have-beaten-trump-says-obama/775669/50 "2016-12-27T16:05:52Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Once again I ask, as I have everyone who advances this argument, what does it say about Trump, no matter how much you slice, dice, and parse it into whatever statistical dog tricks you want, that he got EVEN LESS votes than she did? (Other than that the electoral system needs to be changed, which probably won’t happen until the fall of America.) (post shortened) Hillary won the race that never was. Congratulations. Trump won the race according to the existing rules. Congratulations. Every candidate running for President of the United States knows they have to win a majority of the Electoral College votes in order to be the next POTUS, even if their constituents do not, or are in denial. Presidential political campaigns are designed to win as many of the individual states EC electors as possible. What does it say about Trump? It says Trump won according to the rules of the contest. Hillary lost no matter how anyone tries to spin the results. Hillary did win the largest-number-of-faithless-electors-who-abandoned-their-candidate contest. That’s got to count for something? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-could-have-beaten-trump-says-obama/775669/51 "2016-12-27T16:19:43Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I don’t see where I’m “attacking Trump”. Instead, I’m trying to point out how he’s using Twitter to respond to perceived insults and provocations rather than doing the stateman-like thing of ignoring them. He tweets about Alec Baldwin’s portrayal of him on SNL within thirty minutes of the sketch appearing on air. How can you think that’s healthy? “Healthy”? What the heck does that mean? Do you believe Twitter causes cancer? The media outlets, comedians, pundits, etc. are trying to draw attention to themselves by attacking Trump. That ploy always works. _Hey, look. Alex Baldwin was able to find an acting job. Good for him._ Twitter is a fact of life. People have to learn to deal with it. The LSM’s hold over the news (as well as the comedians mystical hold over the Democrat collective) is weakened when politicians can communicate directly with the public. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-could-have-beaten-trump-says-obama/775669/52 "2016-12-27T16:33:24Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > …(as well as the comedians mystical hold over the Democrat collective)… This startling insight needs far more attention. Your unusual…I daresay,\* unique\*!..perspective on political reality inspires you to analysis that cannot be found anywhere else! ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-could-have-beaten-trump-says-obama/775669/53 "2016-12-27T16:44:18Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > > > I don’t see where I’m “attacking Trump”. Instead, I’m trying to point out how he’s using Twitter to respond to perceived insults and provocations rather than doing the stateman-like thing of ignoring them. He tweets about Alec Baldwin’s portrayal of him on SNL within thirty minutes of the sketch appearing on air. How can you think that’s healthy? > > “Healthy”? What the heck does that mean? Do you believe Twitter causes cancer? Surely you have heard of the concept of mental health? Plus what do foreign leaders conclude when Trump tweets about how a television show portrays him within an hour of that bit appearing on TV? Do they not determine that the man is easily provoked and that they need to figure out how to take advantage of this personality trait of his? Weren’t there kids when you were in school who would blow up when someone provoked them, and didn’t the other kids delight in taunting them? ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-could-have-beaten-trump-says-obama/775669/54 "2016-12-27T16:59:42Z")
Doorhinge wrote: “Is it OK for you to attack Trump because you imagine that other people would do the same thing if, maybe, the roles were reversed? Why do you need to fault others to justify your choice? If you want to attack Trump, you’re free to attack Trump. Trying to justify your attack by imagining what others might/maybe/coulda/woulda/shoulda have done seems pointless. IMHO, of course.” I don’t know. It’s not really imagining when they (the Republicans) have an active history of attacking everything Obama does, including breathing. Imagine the Republican response, for example, had Obama showed up at the Democratic convention with 5 kids from 3 different women. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-could-have-beaten-trump-says-obama/775669/55 "2016-12-27T17:44:00Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Surely you have heard of the concept of mental health? > > Plus what do foreign leaders conclude when Trump tweets about how a television show portrays him within an hour of that bit appearing on TV? Do they not determine that the man is easily provoked and that they need to figure out how to take advantage of this personality trait of his? Weren’t there kids when you were in school who would blow up when someone provoked them, and didn’t the other kids delight in taunting them? While I hope Trump will control his temper, this isn’t a classroom with a teacher to step in and put a stop to things when the biggest kid in the class decides to kick the taunter’s ass. Why would anyone want to be the taunter in that situation? ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-could-have-beaten-trump-says-obama/775669/56 "2016-12-27T17:51:56Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > “Healthy”? What the heck does that mean? Do you believe Twitter causes cancer? … Trump usually Tweets at night. To those of us who’ve known dementia patients, losing track of reality when darkness falls is called [sundowning](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sundowning). Reagan was able to put up a front–at least in the early years. But he did have an acting background to help him put up a good front. And Nancy probably kept track of him… Be happy! The Donald can retire for “health reasons” & President Pence will be more biddable. Oh, the OP? Of course Obama could have beat him. Clinton had lots of good ideas–read her website. But she wasn’t inspiring enough to capture those with short attention spans. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-could-have-beaten-trump-says-obama/775669/57 "2016-12-27T17:53:32Z")
The actual statement from Obama (not that it matters in this post-truth world) hardly sounds like a taunt. Even if it did, it could be understood as part of Obama’s effort to teach his successor Introduction To Presidenting, in the hopes of limiting the damage he will cause. The course curriculum includes thicker skin, less Twitter, paying attention to security briefings, and not getting chumped by Putin, among other things. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-could-have-beaten-trump-says-obama/775669/58 "2016-12-27T18:05:03Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The actual statement from Obama (not that it matters in this post-truth world) hardly sounds like a taunt. I agree. I have little doubt Obama believes he could have defeated Trump, but I don’t think he was trying to highlight that opinion in this interview. It seems like the media ran with it and built this whole “Obama says he would have beaten Trump” narrative, probably to try to generate page views and their accompanying ad revenue. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-could-have-beaten-trump-says-obama/775669/59 "2016-12-27T18:06:27Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Trump usually Tweets at night. To those of us who’ve known dementia patients, losing track of reality when darkness falls is called [sundowning](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sundowning). > > Reagan was able to put up a front–at least in the early years. But he did have an acting background to help him put up a good front. And Nancy probably kept track of him… > > Be happy! The Donald can retire for “health reasons” & President Pence will be more biddable. > > Oh, the OP? Of course Obama could have beat him. Clinton had lots of good ideas–read her website. But she wasn’t inspiring enough to capture those with short attention spans. Are you trying to claim that you know that Trump has dementia? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-could-have-beaten-trump-says-obama/775669/60 "2016-12-27T18:34:09Z")
I have little doubt Obama would have beaten Trump. I also have little doubt that another 500 Democrats would lose their jobs over the following four years and Republicans would reach 60 seats in the Senate and 40 governorships. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-could-have-beaten-trump-says-obama/775669.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-could-have-beaten-trump-says-obama/775669.md?page=4)