# I crossed a picket line today **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 12, 2003, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-crossed-a-picket-line-today/207055 "2003-10-12T22:16:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![tclouie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/838e76/32.png) [@tclouie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tclouie)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-crossed-a-picket-line-today/207055/81 "2003-10-14T10:11:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Goo \* > \*\*YMMV, of course, **tclouie,** but it appears to me that most people in this thread (accepting the rabid anti-unionists) do the same as you do. They respect unions for what they’ve contributed to employees rights in the past. They listen to what today’s strikers are demanding, and make a decision on whether or not they support them, in this particular circumstance. \*\* Well, I think you might be right about that. > [@](#): > > \*\*I don’t think the whole “what unions have done in the past” (from either side, good or bad), what constitutes a “living wage” (there’s a GD just in that point alone) etc is really pertinent to this thread. This is more of a IYHO, would you cross _this particular_ picket line or not, and why or why not ? \*\* True, that’s how this thread started. But when the rabid anti-unionists come a-knockin’, I feel compelled to respond. I mean, some of them say such ugly things, categorizing entire classes of people so negatively. Please remember also that they knocked, and the door was opened, well before I got involved in the thread. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![tclouie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/838e76/32.png) [@tclouie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tclouie)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-crossed-a-picket-line-today/207055/82 "2003-10-14T10:19:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cadolphin \* > \*\*Everyone else involved in this thread at this point seems to be open to allowing other people their opinions. > > Kathy \*\* 😕 :mad: ---
**Author:** ![tclouie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/838e76/32.png) [@tclouie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tclouie)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-crossed-a-picket-line-today/207055/83 "2003-10-14T10:25:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cadolphin \* > \*\*Everyone else involved in this thread at this point seems to be open to allowing other people their opinions. > > Kathy \*\* As am I. What’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![cadolphin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c37758/32.png) [@cadolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cadolphin)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-crossed-a-picket-line-today/207055/84 "2003-10-14T10:27:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tclouie \* > \*\*😕 > > :mad: \*\* What don’t you understand? You are the only one who is \ vehemently demanding we stand behind this strike because of the good unions have done in the past. \ I’m still trying to wrap my head around how you can claim that you owe everything you have to the union. I mean, don’t you take any credit for what you’ve achived in your life? Do you not think you would have the same things, if not better, had you chosen another profession? Don’t get me wrong here. I defend teaching and appreciate teachers as a whole and am one of those who firmly believes that teachers aren’t respected enough nor are they paid what they are worth. But it boggles my mind how anyone could ever say they owe **everything** they have to another someone else. Og included although I think I could understand someone giving credit to Og before I could understand a union being the reason for someone’s success, or failure for that matter. Kathy ---
**Author:** ![cadolphin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c37758/32.png) [@cadolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cadolphin)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-crossed-a-picket-line-today/207055/85 "2003-10-14T10:32:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tclouie \* > \*\*As am I. What’s your point? \*\* My point… Perhaps you think you are but you’re not coming across that way. Kathy ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-crossed-a-picket-line-today/207055/86 "2003-10-14T15:20:23Z")
> [@](#): > > _Posted by **cadolphin** _ > Don’t get me wrong here. I defend teaching and appreciate teachers as a whole and am one of those who firmly believes that teachers aren’t respected enough nor are they **paid what they are worth.** (bolding mine) How do you come to this conclusion? The Public School System in United States is run as a virtual monopoly. One of the basic precepts of monopolies is that prices are set above the true Market Price. This runs counter to basic economic theory. > [@](#): > > \*Posted by \*\* tclouie \*\*\* > I also seem to remember that unions in this era were continually under legal threat from the Sherman Anti-Trust Act, so any exemption must have been a later amendment. > [@](#): > > [Cite](http://www.sbe.csuhayward.edu/~sbesc/99septcol.html) > Congress did much more than just immunize labor unions against antitrust prosecution. With the National Labor Relations Act (NLRA, 1935, amended in 1947 and 1959) Congress undertook to promote their formation, operation and durability. In fact, the NLRA has been used by the courts as the basis of a “non-statutory” exemption from the antitrust laws. The Clayton (1914) and Norris-LaGuardia (1932) Acts gave the unions a statutory exemption regarding specific activities including secondary boycotts and strikes. As early as 1914, possibly earlier, but this is the first cite I pulled. It is a University cite, but it is easily verifiable by other means based on the information presented. This is well before many of the actions of the ‘pro-labor’ President FDR. Without these exemptions from various Anti-Trust laws, unions would fail. One instance where, IMO, one group enjoys **un** equal protection under the law. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-crossed-a-picket-line-today/207055/87 "2003-10-14T15:35:36Z")
**tclouie** , I don’t owe you a detailed, word-for-word account of my experience. I have told you I am **not** “mistaken” about what I encountered. You can either believe me or not, I don’t give a hoot. You can spin it however you like, though, saying you do **not** believe me is tantamount to calling me a liar. Until such time as you retract the accusation, I’m done “discussing” this issue with you. Particularly since I have now **twice** asked you to stick to the facts about _this_ strike by _these_ people over _this_ issue, yet you dodge and weave all over the place, gushing about the All-Good, American-as-Apple-Pie Unions who’ve given you “everything” you have in your life. Talk about taking things personally! ---
**Author:** ![cadolphin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c37758/32.png) [@cadolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cadolphin)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-crossed-a-picket-line-today/207055/88 "2003-10-14T15:51:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bone \* > \*\*(bolding mine) > > How do you come to this conclusion? The Public School System in United States is run as a virtual monopoly. One of the basic precepts of monopolies is that prices are set above the true Market Price. This runs counter to basic economic theory. > \*\* My opinion is based on my experience working in school districts and having family/friends who were/are teachers. I’ve seen situations where people do send their kids to school expecting the teacher to do their job for them. Also, school districts I’ve been connected with were notorious for not having the funding to provide teachers everything they needed to teach the kids so the teacher would take the money out of their pockets to buy supplies for the students. It’s just MHO. Now, in the spirit of this thread, are you telling me that the teacher’s unions are responsible for the pay scale? The OP started out addressing one situation but this thread seems to have spead out all over the place. Let’s see if we can track better. Can you tie this in to the current supermarket strike or at least get closer and connect it to unions? Sheesh Kathy ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-crossed-a-picket-line-today/207055/89 "2003-10-14T16:09:54Z")
\*\*Bill H., I referred to specific chapters in those books that you so sniffily disdain. In particular, the chapter I recommended in Franken’s book is powerfully written and well-documented. But you’ll never know that if you refuse to even look at it. So why not swallow your pride, read it and then tell me if you think it is not powerfully written and well-documented. There’s nothing like reading a book before you criticize it. [/quote] I never criticized the book, friend. I critisized your referring to it as a “cite”. As an educator, I’m sure you’re aware of what an actual cite is. It a) contains the cite’s actual words in a quotation, b) contains a pointer to that quotation, such as a book and page number or a web site, and it’s c) from someone in some authority on the subject. You’ve given none of those. Saying “Michael Moore agrees with me, and he’s got lots of cites, including the New York Times” is really really silly, and again as an educator I’m surprised you’re saying that. If you were teaching high-school, would you accept that sort of cite from one of your students? And again, so you can visualize what I’m saying, suppose I said “Mallard Duck is anti-union and he quotes lots of reputable sources.” Then suppose I follow that up with what you followed up with, namely > [@](#): > > And you want me to look up the Business Week and New York Times websites for you??! Look them up yourself!!! My cite stands. Friend, you don’t have a cite, not one. You have your opinion. And as part of your opinion, you made one of the few numeric claims in this thread, that CEOs on average make 411x what their workers do, when European ones make much much less. You didn’t claim it as an opinion (though it was); you claimed it as a cite. Your word. Fine, show me the money. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-crossed-a-picket-line-today/207055/90 "2003-10-14T16:28:57Z")
Argh. In the above, the first paragraph, namely > [@](#): > > Bill H., I referred to specific chapters in those books that you so sniffily disdain. In particular, the chapter I recommended in Franken’s book is powerfully written and well-documented. But you’ll never know that if you refuse to even look at it. So why not swallow your pride, read it and then tell me if you think it is not powerfully written and well-documented. There’s nothing like reading a book before you criticize it. was a quote from **tclouie**. And by the way, I’m sorry but unless I’m tied down and they forcably drag a tv into the room, there’s no way I’ll ever read or view anything by _Michael Moore_, whom I think is an immoral and contemptable man. But don’t acuse me of blindness. I choose not to have a one-way debate with _Moore_ through reading his book, but I’m happy to have a two-way one with you. You started by claiming you have a cite, so let’s see it. Also, FWIW I did read _Franken_’s _Rush Limbaugh is a big fat idiot_ when it came out, and enjoyed the first chapter, but found the rest rather boring and non-productive. I do think _Franken_ is a very funny man though. ---
**Author:** ![Ryle\_Dup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Ryle\_Dup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryle_Dup)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-crossed-a-picket-line-today/207055/91 "2003-10-14T17:31:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tclouie \* > \*\*OK, **Shayna** , one more time. I know what I said, and I did **not** call you a liar. Saying you do not believe someone’s interpretation of events is \*\*not \*\*equal to calling them a liar. I suggested that you may have been mistaken in interpreting the situation as “threatening”. Got that? MISTAKEN, not LYING. Sheesh. > > Unfortunately, no one will ever know for sure whether you were mistaken because you still won’t answer my question. What, specifically, did these people say or do to you that was threatening? Did they ever personally address you at all? Once again: CALL THE POLICE if you’ve been threatened. > > “Bigass sticks”??! You mean those thin pieces of plywood that hold up picket signs? Those are pretty standard for a protest. You act as if you’ve never seen a picket or protest before. However, sometimes the cops have been known to make protesters remove the sticks from their signs and discard them if they feel their sticks are too large. Call the police! > > You are also continuing to show that you have not read my posts thoroughly or carefully. That’s why you keep saying that I haven’t made reasonable arguments when I have made them – _not_ “just because.” Go back and read them again, especially the part about free markets and corporations and coercion and stuff. > > It mystifies me as to why you are personalizing this issue so much. I am trying to have a discussion , and you are trying to have a fight. This is not an all-or-nothing struggle of good vs. evil. It is an economic dispute. Your way of life is **not** under threat. You are perfectly capable of continuing to shop at your favorite market – which, in fact, you have done. It’s your own problem if you feel “threatened” by doing so. > > Glad to know you would support and even participate in a labor picket if you felt the cause were justified. But, wouldn’t their signs be sporting “bigass sticks” as well? What if someone who disagreed with the protest felt threatened by those “bigass sticks”? Then you would be the one who’s threatening others! 😛 > > OK, it’s true you haven’t described yourself as “anti-union” in this thread. But that doesn’t make sense. If you are so strongly opposed to the unions’ number one weapon, the legal picket, how is that _not_ anti-union? The strike that you support will also be picketing in front of the entrance, and people will have to cross that picket line, too. > > And by the way, I did not call **anyone** un-American – but **bri** did. Stop putting other people’s words in my mouth. > > **Bill H.** , I referred to specific chapters in those books that you so sniffily disdain. In particular, the chapter I recommended in Franken’s book is powerfully written and well-documented. But you’ll never know that if you refuse to even look at it. So why not swallow your pride, read it and then tell me if you think it is **not** powerfully written and well-documented. There’s nothing like reading a book before you criticize it. > > Authors like Moore and Franken are important in the current political scene because they write_popular_ books. People who would not normally read a doctoral thesis on politics do read Moore and Franken, and like it or not, they are having an impact. And it helps that they back up their facts with cites and endnotes. (Also, nobody _ever_ refers to Howard Zinn, a respected historian, or Barbara Ehrenreich, a respected journalist, as “comedians.”) > > So tell me, **Bill H.** , what do you prefer to read, doctoral theses or popular books? Read any Ann Coulter lately? She’s one of _my_ favorite comedians. 🙂 > > And you want _me_ to look up the _Business Week_ and _New York Times_ websites for you??! Look them up yourself!!! My cite stands. > > And by the way – Dude, where are \*\*your \*\*cites? > > **Bone** , your 3% union membership figure tends to reinforce what I have been saying all along: that the influence of unions in society has far exceeded their actual membership. In 1900, there were certainly plenty of workers who sympathized with unions but were not able to join them because of yellow-dog contracts and other employer tactics. There were even times when the workers walked out and struck without any union at all. > > Practically every bit of humane legislation that has benefited society as a whole, including the legislation you mentioned, has been fought for by unions. It’s no accident that a lot of it was enacted in the FDR era – FDR was only the second labor-friendly President. (Teddy Roosevelt was the first, but he couldn’t do much because the Supreme Court, in the early 20th century, had a habit of striking progressive legislation on grounds that neither the federal government nor the states could regulate those things – the infamous “gray area”.) > > I do not believe child labor was outlawed in 1904. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe that also had to wait until the FDR era. > > I also seem to remember that unions in this era were continually under legal threat from the Sherman Anti-Trust Act, so any exemption must have been a later amendment. > > **bri** , your language is abusive and your generalizations are sweepingly inaccurate. To agree with you, one would have to believe that no union members ever work harder than the absolute required minimum – which would mean, also, that no unionized teacher ever stays after hours grading papers and planning for the next day, or ever volunteers to coach or run a club or rehearse a performance after school, or ever visits parents’ homes, or ever fills the classroom with books bought with his/her own money. Hell no, we don’t do _that_, because we don’t have to and we’re such cheap lazy selfish bastards. :rolleyes: And to agree with you, one would also have to believe that unions always make the most exorbitant, unreal demands and don’t care if they drive the employer into the ground. I guess that’s why my union is always asking for a thousand bucks an hour and unlimited vacation days. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: > > Gosh, **bri** , I’m so sorry that you have evidently met such pitiful specimens of union members in your lifetime, without meeting a single good one. On behalf of the entire labor movement, let me apologize.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: > > Oh, one another thing, **bri**. _When_, exactly did _I_ say that crossing a picket line should be illegal??? Did _anybody_ say that in this thread? Well, did they? > > Do ANY of you anti-union posters remember that I said I myself might cross the picket line if I ran out of food and needed to shop? It’s there, look for it. Read stuff before you respond to it, OK? > > **The polls are in!** Tonight’s Eyewitness News showed a poll: 60% of people in LA say they will stop going to the struck supermarket chains as a result of the strike, and only 37% say their buying habits will not be affected. They also interviewed plenty of sympathetic shoppers who were going to Trader Joe’s instead. So, it seems you anti-union posters are waaaaaay out of the mainstream. 🙂 > > In all of the hue and cry here, nobody seems to notice that I never stated my opinion as to whether this particular strike is justified; so now I’m declaring my sympathies. I hope the UFCW wins, because I’m opposed to givebacks on principle. However, _if_ it’s true that the companies are taking a financial beating, the union should compromise. > > Oh, and if anybody’s interested, [this site]([http://ufcw324.org/altshop.html#Los](http://ufcw324.org/altshop.html#Los) Angeles) shows which markets are not being struck, all over California. Hie thee hence and shoppe ye without fearre. > > One more thing, I think the “skilled workers” versus “unskilled workers” argument is a red herring. Most workers work hard and give up a substantial portion of their daylight hours to do it; they should all get a living wage. Ditch-diggers deserve a living wage no less than clerks. Also, “unskilled workers” who do physical labor, like supermarket boxboys, put themselves in danger of life and limb. Their work is no less important, and they themselves are no less important. > > As a matter of fact, some of the most notable labor struggles of recent years have involved workers traditionally regarded as “unskilled”: for example, farmworkers, janitors and drywallers. During the janitors’ strike in L.A. a few years ago, popular support ran so high that yuppie commuters were actually running out to the picketers and putting money in their hands! (According to the _LA Weekly_.) It’s just too bad a few of those supporters can’t be posting here. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Rico](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rico/32/3582_2.png) [@Rico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rico)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-crossed-a-picket-line-today/207055/92 "2003-10-14T17:57:27Z")
AH HA! Vindicated! In this morning’s _Los Angeles Times_: > [@](#): > > Picketing grocery workers in Southern and Central California are backed by a multimillion-dollar strike fund that is paying them part of their normal wages, giving members of the United Food and Commercial Workers an added incentive to hang in there and stay off the job. > > In all, the 70,000 employees who are on strike or find themselves locked out by the supermarket chains are taking in $200 to $300 a week from the fund… > > (snip) > > Part of the strike fund money came from the employees themselves via their union dues and from an extra $2-a-week contribution they and other UCFW members have been making for the last year, specifically to gear up for the strike. And now I hear on KFI Radio that local churches have begun a food drive to help the striking workers feed their “starving families.” A canned food drive has begun, however, they are telling their parishioners to not buy their donations at the striking stores. $1200/month for carrying a sign. Funded in part by money taken out of their checks the last year or so. How long was this strike in the planning stages? Let’s not get off the subject here, people. My OP was not intended to be specifically anti-union, it was more anti-“this particular strike.” Let’s try to keep it civil, and keep this discussion to the grocery strike, with a possible expansion to the public transportation strike in LA as well. Which brings me to my next point. Now, not only are we not supposed to buy food, we’re also not supposed to use public transportation to get to the store or anywhere else. The _Times_ is reporting that 400,000 people in Los Angeles are without a ride to their places of employment because of the MTA action, their second action in three years. Sheesh. And people wonder why we can’t get a good public transportation system in LA? One of the reasons: every time we park our cars and begin to enjoy public transportation THEY GO OUT ON STRIKE, forcing us back into automobiles. If the MTA thinks their hurting the corporate suits sitting in their ivory towers making “20 million dollars a year,” as stated in an earlier post, think again! You’re hurting the lower classes with this action. The people who can’t afford their own car! What are you hoping? That the lower class will rise up and overthrow the middle and upper classes? Holy George Orwell, Batman! ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-crossed-a-picket-line-today/207055/93 "2003-10-14T18:16:06Z")
The hypocracy is stunning, isn’t it, **Rico**? These people are willing to contribute money out of their weekly paychecks to their **union** for insurance in the event of a future strike, but they’re _un_willing to contribute money out of their weekly paychecks to their **healthcare provider** for insurance in the event they or their family become sick or injured and need medical care. I just can’t begin to tell you how sick it makes me to see how fucked up their priorities are. ---
**Author:** ![Doomtrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/0ea827/32.png) [@Doomtrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doomtrain)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-crossed-a-picket-line-today/207055/94 "2003-10-14T18:29:26Z")
$200-300 a week?! That’s more than I usually made working full-time, 35-40 hours a week when I was working retail! Must be nice! And yea, the LA strike pissed me off. Rich people aren’t taking the bus, you dummies! ---
**Author:** ![tclouie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/838e76/32.png) [@tclouie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tclouie)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-crossed-a-picket-line-today/207055/95 "2003-10-14T18:55:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cadolphin \* > **What don’t you understand? You are the only one who is \ vehemently demanding we stand behind this strike because of the good unions have done in the past. \** I have not said that. My previous posts have shown a more nuanced view of this particular strike. And while I personally support this strike, I have not demanded that anyone else refrain from going to a struck store (see my first post). In fact, let me remind you **(again!)** that I said I might have to cross the picket line myself. (Again, see my first post.) Talk about “missing the mark”!!! > [@](#): > > \*\*I’m still trying to wrap my head around how you can claim that you owe everything you have to the union. I mean, don’t you take any credit for what you’ve achived in your life? \*\* Uh, yeah, I do. See previous post for my explanation of that statement. Once again, nuances are lost on some of these posters. It’s not good form to skim previous posts before you criticize them. “Missing the mark,” indeed. > [@](#): > > \*\*Don’t get me wrong here. I defend teaching and appreciate teachers as a whole and am one of those who firmly believes that teachers aren’t respected enough nor are they paid what they are worth. \*\* Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![tclouie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/838e76/32.png) [@tclouie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tclouie)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-crossed-a-picket-line-today/207055/96 "2003-10-14T19:15:37Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Shayna \* > \*\* You can spin it however you like, though, saying you do **not** believe me is tantamount to calling me a liar._\* :rolleyes: You would have to be either an expert on semantics, or a mind-reader who can tell what people intended to say better than those people themselves. Any person can say they feel insulted or threatened by any innocuous act of another person, but that’s their problem. > [@](#): > > **Until such time as you retract the accusation, I’m done “discussing” this issue with you.** Retract your own accusation. > [@](#): > > \*\*Particularly since I have now **twice** asked you to stick to the facts about _this_ strike by _these_ people over _this_ issue, yet you dodge and weave all over the place, \*\* I talked about this strike and this issue in my very first post – also in several subsequent ones. I have fully addressed the OP. ---
**Author:** ![tclouie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/838e76/32.png) [@tclouie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tclouie)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-crossed-a-picket-line-today/207055/97 "2003-10-14T19:38:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bill H. \* > \*\*Friend, you don’t have a cite, not one. You have your opinion. \*\* **Bill H.** , I have a feeling that no matter what cite I came up with, you would say that it’s not good enough, or not a “real” cite. There’s not much I can do if you refuse to even look at the source. I would like to remind you that not all information is on-line; off-line information is just as valid. You can’t expect to be spoon-fed information, as if you could click your way to enlightenment. Sometimes you have to physically go out there, to the library or the newspaper morgue or the bookstore or to your personal observations, and actively get the goods. And yes, those are legitimate cites on SDMB. 🙂 BTW, do you have a cite for your definition of “cite”? The standards for citing of sources on these boards are somewhat more relaxed than APA Style. However, as a grad student I have gotten excellent grades on my research papers, using APA Style for my notes. Also, do you have a cite for your repeated assertions that unions are job-killers? Do you even have one cite of your own? I’ve given several, but you don’t like 'em. Anyway, the Michael Moore cite stands. And yes, as a teacher I would definitely recommend the reading of outside texts to my students. I was being rather teacher-ly when I recommended all those books in my first post. It is totally educationally sound to recommend that people go out and get information for themselves instead of just giving it to them. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-crossed-a-picket-line-today/207055/98 "2003-10-14T19:59:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GMRyujin \* > $200-300 a week?! That’s more than I usually made working full-time, 35-40 hours a week when I was working retail! Depends on where and when you’re working, I guess. Right now, in southern California, $200-$300 a week is minimum wage (around $8/hour, IIRC). ---
**Author:** ![Rico](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rico/32/3582_2.png) [@Rico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rico)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-crossed-a-picket-line-today/207055/99 "2003-10-14T20:05:47Z")
$300 per week = $7.50 per hour, before taxes based on a 40 hour week. California minimum wage is $6.75 per hour. ---
**Author:** ![LordVor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/90ced4/32.png) [@LordVor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LordVor)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-crossed-a-picket-line-today/207055/100 "2003-10-14T20:32:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bri1600bv \* > \*\*So what if they’ve seen profit increases? Groceries are inherently low margin businesses, so it’s probably over an artifically low base anyway. LIke they took charges to close some stores or “retire” some union goldbrickers early. > \*\* If that’s so, it should again be fairly easy to prove then, shouldn’t it? > [@](#): > > \*\* > Profits belong to the shareholders. They are the ones who took the risk. Employees get paid through thick and thin. They deserve none of the “profit increases” if they’re even are any. > \*\* Didn’t say that the employees deserved any of the profit increases. That’s not the case in this strike, the workers are not demanding anything that they don’t already have, but the stores are trying to take $5/week away from the employees. This, to me, implies that the burden of proof is on the grocery stores to show that they cannot make a reasonable profit while keeping employee benifits at their current level. They haven’t been able to prove this sufficiently to the union, and this is why we have a strike. In the media, the stores make great claims about non-union Wal-Mart starting to open superstores to compete with them in the area. But again, the Union states that Wal-Mart’s current plans will allow them access to only 1% of the market, while the three stores in question represent 91% of the market. Now, the Union is the only one who seems to be talking numbers to the media, while the stories I’ve seen have the stores talking generalities. This, to me, lends credence to the Union’s initial position in this case, which is why I asked for and continue to ask for any real, publically-declaired numbers to back up either position. -lv [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-crossed-a-picket-line-today/207055.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-crossed-a-picket-line-today/207055.md?page=6)