# I didn't feed them enough! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 18, 2008, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-feed-them-enough/453304 "2008-06-18T04:39:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2008, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-feed-them-enough/453304/21 "2008-06-19T18:09:16Z")
[QUOTE=Cicero] I can’t disagree with anything you have said. Normal parents would not allow this to happen - I would starve before my kids. [/QUOTE] Hell, I don’t have kids, but if I had them I’d starve first, too. **Princhester** , we don’t know enough to know if this woman is mentally ill or stressed beyond her breaking point (I, personally, kind of doubt it, but I’m not willing to pass judgment). She may very well claim mental illness in her defense: in theory, this will then be checked for and either proven or disproven in a court of law. I would be interested to know _how_ she said “I didn’t feed them enough, I guess.” I can think of at least two ways to possibly interpret that sentence: Stoned and/or uncaring, or simply exhausted. **Ensign Edison** : I should have been more specific: untreated at the time of her incident. But we really must stop this hijack. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2008, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-feed-them-enough/453304/22 "2008-06-19T21:54:11Z")
I just read a post on another board from a person who knew this family - it sounds like the horrible, stereotypical, “nobody knew anything was wrong, so nobody did anything.” Here’s the post from the person who knew the family: > [@](#): > > The thing I’m finding so hard to come to terms with is I know this family. The father was at one stage my son-in-law’s best friend. They grew up together, went to school together, worked together for four years, and socialised together all the time. When my grandson played football for two years, the two older sons were in his team, and they were also best friends. Before those twins were born, my daughter used to babysit the other children from time to time. There were children’s birthday parties, sleepovers, camping weekends, and other social gatherings occasionally. Although discipline was a bit on the slack side, there was never a hint of neglect or abuse. On the contrary, those children were often spoiled with the best of everything, expensive clothes and toys, playstation, xbox, a tv in every room. The parents always had two late model cars. They always lived in nice homes albiet rented homes, but very comfortable nevertheless. > > Reports of them being known to the deparment previously are incorrect. It was his brother’s family who were previously under investigation by Child Services. The only contact the Department had with the twins family was only once when one of the children went to school with a cut above his eye and the school, because of the history with his brother, reported it to Child Services - it was investigated, and was proved to be a simple accident where the child had injured himself. > > About 12months ago my daughter’s family bought their own home, my son-in-law was offered a new job which he took, my grandson had to stop playing football for medical reasons, and the contact between them and this family became less regular. Anytime they did visit, and my daughter and grandchildren asked to see the twins, it was always a case of “the twins are sleeping and can’t be disturbed”. Over the last 12 mths they have only seen those twins on two occasions, the last being when they helped them to move house into the house where this happened. My daughter sat and played with the twins while the other adults moved the furniture and set up the house. She said they were beautiful healthy babies but appeared a little behind in their development. That was 8 months ago. She hasn’t seen them since. The father has visited my son-in-law several times, but the mother and children were never with him as by this stage their relationship had broken down. > > Last Thursday, when my daughter picked up the children from school, they asked her if they could go visit because they hadn’t seen them in so long, and they wanted to go play with the kids for a while. So she took them. In hindsight my daughter says she should have clicked there was something odd. The mother didn’t let them into the house and instead ushered them onto the front patio, the excuse being she wanted to have a cigarette, but didn’t smoke in the house. So the children, all except the twins, played in the front yard for about 20 mins, and they sat on the patio having a cigarette. When my daughter asked about the twins, and how they were, the mother said “oh they’re fine, but they’re sleeping”. Little did she know that they were already dead, and only 3 feet inside the outer brick wall on which she was sitting against! The mother then made an excuse as to why she had to go, and my daughter left. > > Well my daughter and son-in-law spent all day yesterday giving statements to the police. Apart from the grandmother, my daughter was the last person to see the mother and the other children. Needless to say, she is devastated. She’s full of emotions and grief and has thoughts that maybe if she had visited more often, insisted on seeing the twins, even snuck into their room when the mother wasn’t watching, she could have prevented this. She can’t understand why she didn’t sense something was wrong, and no matter how much I try to reassure her that this wasn’t her fault, she is flooded with “if only…” thoughts and feels she’s let those little ones down by not being there for them. Now, that’s a chilling story; the poster’s daughter sat outside with the mom and had a smoke with her while all their children played together, while the twins were already dead inside. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2008, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-feed-them-enough/453304/23 "2008-06-19T23:11:25Z")
[QUOTE=SisterCoyote] **Princhester** , we don’t know enough to know if this woman is mentally ill or stressed beyond her breaking point [/QUOTE] The latest news reports have found posts to a message board by the mother suggesting precisely that she was getting extremely stressed. ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2008, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-feed-them-enough/453304/24 "2008-06-20T01:56:27Z")
I am crushed, just imagined the cries of those children… I actually think I’m going to throw up. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2008, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-feed-them-enough/453304/25 "2008-06-20T02:44:09Z")
The latest reports (media) indicate that the woman was finding it difficult to cope after the birth of the twins- she felt herself “drowning” and posted at a message board with her problems. I am no psychologist but I would have thought that if you were alert enough to know of the issues you are facing- enough to post to an Internet group you know enough to call some local child support group. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2008, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-feed-them-enough/453304/26 "2008-06-20T02:58:52Z")
[QUOTE=EJsGirl] I am crushed, just imagined the cries of those children… I actually think I’m going to throw up. ☹ [/QUOTE] See, I see the twins as having given up on the crying long since. And that makes me physically ill as well… I am not out for this mother’s blood (and I really, really blame the father in this too–there is no reason he should get mentioned less often in negative terms) because her blood (or his) won’t bring these twins back. They need to have the other kids taken away (but the kids kept together). I don’t really know what to do with these parents. Mental health care, I suppose. Jail time? What purpose does it serve? Oddly enough, for one so liberal as me, I have no problem with enforced sterilization of both parents–after all, whether mentally ill or no, they have shown that they cannot be responsible for children–and not just the ones who died. Those poor kids–the twins and the others who have to live with this horror. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2008, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-feed-them-enough/453304/27 "2008-06-20T03:25:08Z")
I agree that the father is every bit as culpable as the mother- even if they were “separated”. The whole thing sickens me- we live in Brisbane- not bloody Rwanda. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2008, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-feed-them-enough/453304/28 "2008-06-20T08:41:26Z")
[QUOTE=Cicero] The latest reports (media) indicate that the woman was finding it difficult to cope after the birth of the twins- she felt herself “drowning” and posted at a message board with her problems. I am no psychologist but I would have thought that if you were alert enough to know of the issues you are facing- enough to post to an Internet group you know enough to call some local child support group. [/QUOTE] Doesn’t mean she would have been able to think of it, or to recognize she needed their help. I’ve been caring for depressed parents and, while they could spend hours moaning, any attempt at getting them to fix it would met with strong resistance and anger. Saying “maybe I should call the doc” triggered yells of “I’m not sick, God damn you!” - from daily-Mass people who flinched if my brothers or myself so much as said “shit.” ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2008, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-feed-them-enough/453304/29 "2008-06-20T08:50:59Z")
I don’t disagree with you at all Nava. I have no experience of depressed patients, and whilst she may have recognised problems enough to post about them it may not have been significant enough for her to call a child caring authority. Do I really believe that? Probably not. ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2008, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-feed-them-enough/453304/30 "2008-06-20T13:38:47Z")
In most first world countries isn’t it common to immediately find a pediatrician after your childs birth and go to regulary scheduled appointments every 2-3 months until the kid turns two? Apparently not the case here but how common is it for people to have a baby and never step foot in a doctors office with them? ---
**Author:** ![Cazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cazzle/32/75_2.png) [@Cazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cazzle)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2008, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-feed-them-enough/453304/31 "2008-06-20T14:26:09Z")
I was too saddened to muster up enough RO to start a thread about this, but I’m glad someone has. I can’t imagine how terrible the lives of those children must have been that no one thought it was odd that there were no sounds from their room for more than a week. In my mind, 18 month old twins should be the cheeky, noisy, whirlwinds of activity that the whole family dotes on, not silent bundles locked in their room that even their own father hasn’t bothered to look in on since Christmas. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2008, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-feed-them-enough/453304/32 "2008-06-21T07:40:08Z")
[QUOTE=Hampshire] In most first world countries isn’t it common to immediately find a pediatrician after your childs birth and go to regulary scheduled appointments every 2-3 months until the kid turns two? Apparently not the case here but how common is it for people to have a baby and never step foot in a doctors office with them? [/QUOTE] The standard schedule here (I believe it’s the same in all states) calls for visits to the Maternal and Child Health Centre at birth, then 2 weeks, 4 weeks, 2,4,6,8 months, 1 year and 18 months. So they probably would have been _just_ at the point where someone would be thinking about contacting them to say “You know you haven’t had an 18-month visit, right? When you coming in?” As a complicating factor, I see they had moved since the twins’ birth. Round here, this would mean that they could chose to move to a new MCHC if there was one closer to their new house, but they don’t have to. So possibly nobody knew for certain that they were in charge of visits for this family. Falling through the cracks indeed… ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2008, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-feed-them-enough/453304/33 "2008-06-21T22:54:54Z")
I can’t imagine something like that. How awful. There’s really nothing more to say. ---
**Author:** ![Mojo\_Pin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mojo\_Pin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo_Pin)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2008, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-feed-them-enough/453304/34 "2008-06-22T08:34:07Z")
Oh no. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2008, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-feed-them-enough/453304/35 "2008-06-22T13:00:50Z")
My guess is that everything went to hell, then things got so bad that by the time she knew she had to get professional help, she also knew that if she did she was going to get charged with neglect. So she just went catatonic on the whole situation because she couldn’t cope. And the father didn’t want to know. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2008, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-feed-them-enough/453304/36 "2008-06-22T15:26:27Z")
[QUOTE=eleanorigby] Oddly enough, for one so liberal as me, I have no problem with enforced sterilization of both parents–after all, whether mentally ill or no, they have shown that they cannot be responsible for children–and not just the ones who died. [/QUOTE] …but if you’re presupposing that they were mentally ill enough not to be culpable for their actions, then sterilization after they’ve received psychiatric treatment would be unnecessary, and punitive. And if they _weren’t_ mentally ill, they’re showing an inability to follow legal and societal rules against taking human life, while in knowledge of the penalties. Grounds enough for preemptively sterilizing them to possibly prevent future crimes, but not imprisoning them to possibly prevent future crimes? ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2008, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-feed-them-enough/453304/37 "2008-06-22T20:48:43Z")
[QUOTE=Aspidistra] Falling through the cracks indeed… [/QUOTE] Well, they were pretty skinny… ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2008, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-feed-them-enough/453304/38 "2008-06-22T21:39:13Z")
[QUOTE=Ranchoth] …but if you’re presupposing that they were mentally ill enough not to be culpable for their actions, then sterilization after they’ve received psychiatric treatment would be unnecessary, and punitive. And if they _weren’t_ mentally ill, they’re showing an inability to follow legal and societal rules against taking human life, while in knowledge of the penalties. Grounds enough for preemptively sterilizing them to possibly prevent future crimes, but not imprisoning them to possibly prevent future crimes? [/QUOTE] I don’t agree with your interpretation of my statement. I don’t see sterilization of the mentally ill, in this case, to be punitive or unnecessary. I don’t see the sterilization as a punishment at all-more like a preventative measure. Perhaps just having to live for the rest of their lives without their surviving children would be enough. I don’t think so, though. Somehow, I can see deal old Dad just walking away with no problem (after all, he walked away from the twins long ago). Mom, once she is treated for her depression or other illness, might have more trouble dealing with her loss, but there I might be succumbing to stereotype. Locking them away solves nothing really. I don’t know what the answer is–no doubt they’ll both do jail time. I worry more about the remaining kids. I can’t fault child protective services or whatever you all have in Oz. They had moved and the way it works here is that the parents opt into those “well baby” visits. If the parents don’t bring the kids in–the docs have no way of knowing they exist. Not until they start school and vaccinations need to be done (and even there we have loopholes) does the state get involved. The part that most sickens is that these twins learned that crying does not work–IOW, they had no hope and of course, no way to feed themselves. Innocent babes murdered slowly over time. Ghastly. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2008, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-feed-them-enough/453304/39 "2008-06-22T22:36:23Z")
[QUOTE=eleanorigby] I don’t agree with your interpretation of my statement. I don’t see sterilization of the mentally ill, in this case, to be punitive or unnecessary. I don’t see the sterilization as a punishment at all-more like a preventative measure. [/quote] But in this case assuming they were insane enough to need treatment, not punishment, and assuming they’re _curable,_ sterilization becomes unfair—you’d then be keeping people who _weren’t_ mentally inclined to kill their children from procreating. _And_ you’ve decided to cross the line into surgically altering people to guard against possible future criminal behavior. Look, my point is that by pursuing timid half-measures, you’re _already_ crossing ethical lines you were trying to draw for yourself, _and_ setting up support for arguments in favor of just the kind of measures you were trying to avoid for the sake of morality. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2008, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-feed-them-enough/453304/40 "2008-06-23T16:01:07Z")
[QUOTE=Ranchoth] But in this case assuming they were insane enough to need treatment, not punishment, and assuming they’re _curable,_ sterilization becomes unfair—you’d then be keeping people who _weren’t_ mentally inclined to kill their children from procreating. _And_ you’ve decided to cross the line into surgically altering people to guard against possible future criminal behavior. Look, my point is that by pursuing timid half-measures, you’re _already_ crossing ethical lines you were trying to draw for yourself, _and_ setting up support for arguments in favor of just the kind of measures you were trying to avoid for the sake of morality. [/QUOTE] Oh, brother. :rolleyes: I am not worried about my “ethical” lines. I am conveying feelings of strong anger, disgust, horror, dismay despair and other negative emotions–I ran out of words and my thesaurus isn’t handy. How is sterilization unfair? Never mind–I really don’t want to know your answer. You don’t need to save me from myself, really–it’s ok to express thoughts and feelings about this appalling situation in strong terms. They don’t have to hold any ethical (or even logical) line–they’re\* feelings\*. What will likely happen is that they will go to prison–how does that help the mentally ill mom? Dad I’ve pretty much written off–she may have been out to lunch but he was still a viable member of society–I hold him to a higher level of responsibility here (if she was indeed mentally ill). He abdicated his duties willingly, she did not. That does not excuse her in the least. I see it as mom having to be the responsible parent, but if she isn’t/couldn’t/wouldn’t, Dad needed to step up. You don’t have to agree with me. I hope we can agree that these kids need good, stable homes with therapy, compassion and understanding for many years to come. (how in hell does anyone get “over” something like this?) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-feed-them-enough/453304.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-feed-them-enough/453304.md?page=3)