# I didn't know that was actually illegal. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 12, 2009, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-know-that-was-actually-illegal/513574 "2009-10-12T20:05:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2009, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-know-that-was-actually-illegal/513574/1 "2009-10-12T20:05:56Z")
> **[Fake veteran faces 'stolen valor' charge - CNN.com](https://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/10/12/fake.veteran/index.html)** > > Richard Strandlof said he survived the 9/11 attacks on the Pentagon. He said he survived again when a roadside bomb went off in Iraq, killing four fellow Marines. He'd point to his head and tell people he had a metal plate, collateral damage from the... I don’t want to come off as a sympathizer to this ass. It is pretty scummy to lie about receiving military awards. But I had no idea there was a specific federal crime against it. > [@](#): > > Before his deception was revealed, crowds ate up his story. He canvassed Colorado appearing at the sides of politicians. Inspiring and seemingly authentic, he spoke on behalf of veterans at the state Capitol. Now if he charged appearance fees for any of that stuff then I could see something in the fraud genre being thrown at him. But the federal crime of "“for false claims about receipt of military decorations or medals” seems pretty funky from a free-speech grounds. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2009, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-know-that-was-actually-illegal/513574/2 "2009-10-12T23:52:32Z")
The [Stolen Valor Act of 2005](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Valor_Act_of_2005) criminalized the purposeful wearing of unearned military decorations or claiming to have been awarded the same (Federal Misdemeanor). The Act expanded the earlier law against wearing the Medal of Honor. It usually stipulates the offender does it for personal gain, but it does not have the monetary gain. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2009, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-know-that-was-actually-illegal/513574/3 "2009-10-13T01:17:07Z")
CNN coyly says, “He canvassed Colorado appearing at the sides of politicians.” Those politicians were all anti-war Democrats. [Dems red-faced over veteran impostor – The Denver Post](http://www.denverpost.com/washington/ci_12373595) Oops. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2009, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-know-that-was-actually-illegal/513574/4 "2009-10-13T01:29:02Z")
> [@rowrrbazzle](#): > > CNN coyly says, “He canvassed Colorado appearing at the sides of politicians.” > > Those politicians were all anti-war Democrats. [Dems red-faced over veteran impostor – The Denver Post](http://www.denverpost.com/washington/ci_12373595) > > Oops. What does that have to do with anything? ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2009, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-know-that-was-actually-illegal/513574/5 "2009-10-13T03:46:26Z")
> [@wolfman](#): > > But the federal crime of "“for false claims about receipt of military decorations or medals” seems pretty funky from a free-speech grounds. It’s called fraud. No free speech protection. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2009, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-know-that-was-actually-illegal/513574/6 "2009-10-13T10:46:59Z")
> [@wolfman](#): > > Now if he charged appearance fees for any of that stuff then I could see something in the fraud genre being thrown at him. But the federal crime of "“for false claims about receipt of military decorations or medals” seems pretty funky from a free-speech grounds. I’m going to disagree: fraud is against the law, like **Duckster** said. I don’t think society loses anything if this is against the law. It’s also a crime to impersonate a police officer even if you don’t arrest anyone, or to impersonate a firefighter. I’d say this is similar to those laws. ---
**Author:** ![FairyChatMom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fairychatmom/32/21906_2.png) [@FairyChatMom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FairyChatMom)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2009, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-know-that-was-actually-illegal/513574/7 "2009-10-13T12:15:45Z")
I’d be inclined to guess that people who think this is no big deal have never served in the military and don’t understand what ribbons and medals mean. They’re not just fashion accessories. Yeah, some are pretty much gimmies, like the National Defense Medal, which you get just for being in uniform during a war - I got one when I enlisted during the Viet Nam War, even tho I never got closer to the action than San Diego. Others have to be earned - whether for marksmanship, good conduct, or valor in combat. And such things as aviator wings, surface warfare pins, submariner dolphins, SEAL badge (I was Navy - I know other services have their special insignia, too) - you have to put a lot of effort into earning those. So to have someone pretending for whatever reason is a slap at those who really deserve them. And it’s just not right. It’s as dishonest as claiming to have graduated from an Ivy League school when you really flunked out of community college. Or claiming you’re a lawyer when you actually empty the trash cans at a law firm. Well, you get the idea… ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2009, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-know-that-was-actually-illegal/513574/8 "2009-10-13T18:03:23Z")
I should point out that one of those ‘anti-war democrats’ is someone I consider a hero. Hal Bidlack. > **[Hal Bidlack](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hal_Bidlack)** > > Harold Wilford Bidlack (born 1958) is a retired United States Air Force officer and national security aide. He ran unsuccessfully for the United States House of Representatives in Colorado's 5th congressional district as the Democratic nominee in the 2008 election. From 2010 to 2014, Bidlack served as a staffer for US Senator Michael Bennet, focusing primarily on veteran and military issues and casework, and oversaw Bennet's military academy nominations. > Bidlack served over 25 years in the Air F... He’s a good guy, served capably and ably under two presidents, in some fairly tricky positions. Oops my ass. This is the guy this scumbag ripped off some of his story from. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2009, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-know-that-was-actually-illegal/513574/9 "2009-10-13T22:34:22Z")
Every drunk I’ve ever beat at darts in a bar has claimed to be a Ranger, Green Beret, Seal, Special Forces or flown Stealth Fighters. :rolleyes: Invariably they could all kill me 18 different ways with a paper clip. I’ve always wondered who does all the other stuff in the military if everyone is “Elite” status. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2009, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-know-that-was-actually-illegal/513574/10 "2009-10-14T00:12:23Z")
> [@](#): > > Every drunk I’ve ever beat at darts in a bar has claimed to be a Ranger, Green Beret, Seal, Special Forces or flown Stealth Fighters It must have still been early in the evening. After a few more drinks he’d have told you he was a Ranger, Green Beret, Seal, Special Forces _and_ flew Stealth Fighters. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2009, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-know-that-was-actually-illegal/513574/11 "2009-10-14T00:20:18Z")
Yeah, they made a special dispensation for him. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2009, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-know-that-was-actually-illegal/513574/12 "2009-10-14T00:21:19Z")
Lots of pawn shops/antique shops/flea markets etc. sell military awards, especially Purple Hearts. Some army surplus stores sell medals and insignia that’s almost identical to the real thing; it would fool most people (myself included) with no military background. I wonder out of curiosity if its against the law to wear these if you haven’t earned them, assuming that you make no actual claims. I remember a few years ago Bargs Root Beer had free Soviet military medals in each box. They were the real deal. Must have made the Russian guys who were wounded or awarded valorous duty medals in Afghanistan or whatever feel great to know that the exact same award was being included with $2.99 12 packs. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2009, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-know-that-was-actually-illegal/513574/13 "2009-10-14T00:27:34Z")
> [@FairyChatMom](#): > > I’d be inclined to guess that people who think this is no big deal have never served in the military and don’t understand what ribbons and medals mean. Never served in the military but I think it’s a big deal. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2009, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-know-that-was-actually-illegal/513574/14 "2009-10-14T01:20:08Z")
If he committed fraud, why wasn’t he charged with committing fraud? I gotta go with the OP – this law “stolen valor” law seems to me to be akin to all the various flag-burning laws and amendments. Maybe there should be a more generic _Patheic Losers Who Try to Draw Attention to and Make Heroes of Themslves_ law. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2009, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-know-that-was-actually-illegal/513574/15 "2009-10-14T02:02:05Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m going to disagree: fraud is against the law, like **Duckster** said. I don’t think society loses anything if this is against the law. It’s also a crime to impersonate a police officer even if you don’t arrest anyone, or to impersonate a firefighter. I’d say this is similar to those laws. If what he did was fraud, then prosecute him for fraud. Don’t go making bullshit, pander-to-the-douchebags specific laws like the “Stolen Valor Law.” Also, was it fraud? There are laws against fraud, but those laws are often reasonably specific about what constitutes fraud, and i’m pretty sure that most of them are far more complicated than “Fraud = lying about your past.” ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2009, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-know-that-was-actually-illegal/513574/16 "2009-10-14T02:13:32Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > If what he did was fraud, then prosecute him for fraud. Don’t go making bullshit, pander-to-the-douchebags specific laws like the “Stolen Valor Law.” You have to be a douchebag to make it a crime to impersonate a veteran? What exactly is bullshit about this? Like I said before, it’s also against the law to impersonate a police officer or firefighter. Is that bullshit? > [@](#): > > There are laws against fraud, but those laws are often reasonably specific about what constitutes fraud, and i’m pretty sure that most of them are far more complicated than “Fraud = lying about your past.” Colorado has a fraud law that makes it illegal to misrepresent yourself for personal gain or to harm someone else. [I think this is it:](http://www.leg.state.co.us/clics2004a/csl.nsf/502942e83290800b87256d87006c5b8d/7430cf40c521873c87256d7800636694/$FILE/wptemp.txt) > [@](#): > > SECTION 2. 18-5-113, Colorado Revised Statutes, is amended to read: > 18-5-113. Criminal impersonation - identity theft. > (1) A person commits criminal impersonation if he or she knowingly assumes a false or fictitious identity or capacity, and in such identity or capacity he or she: > (a) Marries, or pretends to marry, or to sustain the marriage relation toward another without the connivance of the latter; or > (b) Becomes bail or surety for a party in an action or proceeding, civil or criminal, before a court or officer authorized to take the bail or surety; or > (c) Confesses a judgment, or subscribes, verifies, publishes, acknowledges, or proves a written instrument which by law may be recorded, with the intent that the same may be delivered as true; or > (d) Does an act which if done by the person falsely impersonated, might subject such person to an action or special proceeding, civil or > criminal, or to liability, charge, forfeiture, or penalty; or > (e) Does any other act with intent to unlawfully gain a benefit for himself or herself or another or to injure or defraud another; or > (f) Applies for, or completes, any government-issued document. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2009, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-know-that-was-actually-illegal/513574/17 "2009-10-14T02:20:37Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > …Colorado has a fraud law that makes it illegal to misrepresent yourself for personal gain or to harm someone else. [I think this is it:](http://www.leg.state.co.us/clics2004a/csl.nsf/502942e83290800b87256d87006c5b8d/7430cf40c521873c87256d7800636694/$FILE/wptemp.txt) None of these criminalizing elements appear to have been done by the dick on the OP. And in the OP link, there are claims that whether or not he profited from the impersonation is irrelevant. I personally think it is central to the question of whether he actually committed a crime in the sense of there being a victim. Stolen Valor? The very name is prima facia evidence of bullshit. The guy lied about his past, and maybe wore a costume to reinforce the lie. IMO that makes him a huge douchebag, not a criminal. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2009, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-know-that-was-actually-illegal/513574/18 "2009-10-14T02:21:03Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You have to be a douchebag to make it a crime to impersonate a veteran? What exactly is bullshit about this? Like I said before, it’s also against the law to impersonate a police officer or firefighter. Is that bullshit? You really don’t know the difference? A police officer and a firefighter are public servants employed for specific purposes, and their job requires that they perform specific duties, and that they be vested with particular levels of authority over civilians in certain situations. Impersonating those people can actively cause harm (in the case, for example, of someone impersonating a cop in order to get into someone’s house), or can lead to detrimental consequences (someone impersonating a firefighter might be assumed to have a level of medical and first aid skills that he does not, in fact, posses). The harm, in such cases, is material and has potential to be a threat to people’s health and even their lives. Do i need to go on? Do i really need to explain to you why this is different than impersonating someone who is a veteran of the armed forces? > [@Marley23](#): > > Colorado has a fraud law that makes it illegal to misrepresent yourself for personal gain or to harm someone else. [I think this is it:](http://www.leg.state.co.us/clics2004a/csl.nsf/502942e83290800b87256d87006c5b8d/7430cf40c521873c87256d7800636694/$FILE/wptemp.txt) OK, so there are two possibilities here: 1. The guy broke that law, and did in fact commit fraud. If that’s the case, then prosecute him under that law. 2. The guy did not break that law. If he didn’t break that law, i see no need for a law specifically prohibiting him from claiming to be a veteran. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2009, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-know-that-was-actually-illegal/513574/19 "2009-10-14T02:47:11Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > None of these criminalizing elements appear to have been done by the dick on the OP. (e) does. He gained prestige and fame by inventing a background for himself, and he covered up his criminal background. > [@mhendo](#): > > You really don’t know the difference? I do. But they’re pretty similar to matter how you slice it: it’s a crime to impersonate a firefighter even if there’s no fire, for example, even though that doesn’t harm anyone. I agree that this law looks redundant with the fraud law, and yes, it gives extra status to veterans. Is that really so offensive? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2009, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-know-that-was-actually-illegal/513574/20 "2009-10-14T03:05:27Z")
“Prestige and fame” are intangibles and it would take a team of lawyers to decide whether that in itself constitutes “gain”. Is self-inflation of your ego gain? Personally, I think not, at least not in the sense that a court would recognize. Now, if the guy, DID raise money under false pretenses, or apply for some veteran’s benefits, or anything tangible like that, I would agree that that is a criminal act. It would be nice if a lawyer dropped by to clarify some legal concepts for us. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-know-that-was-actually-illegal/513574.md?page=2)