# I didn't know them but I'm still shaken **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 9, 2006, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-know-them-but-im-still-shaken/339228 "2006-01-09T22:50:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![AFAIKnow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a6a055/32.png) [@AFAIKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AFAIKnow)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-know-them-but-im-still-shaken/339228/21 "2006-01-10T05:09:12Z")
> [@Q.E.D.](#): > > The execution and the lengthy appeals process that goes along with it is also funded by the taxpayer. In most cases, it costs more to execute a man than it does to imprison him for life. The death penalty _may_ be an effective deterrent, but it’s definitely not saving anyone any money. And that is the burden society has to bear for their own decisions. If society decides to ban the DP then we definately should pay for them if we put them there. Not because the man deserves it. If it is proven beyond a doubt that the man actually committed the crimes then the only thing he deserves is to be walked out back and be exterminated in the most humane way possible, as quickly as possible. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-know-them-but-im-still-shaken/339228/22 "2006-01-10T05:30:34Z")
> [@AFAIKnow](#): > > If it is proven beyond a doubt that the man actually committed the crimes… There’s the rub. You can never prove guilt beyond ANY doubt. The law recognizes reasonable doubt as the standard, but it’s far from perfect. Innocent people _have_ been put to death in this country. Some may find that acceptable. I don’t. The DP isn’t punitive, it’s revenge, pure and simple. I understand the desire for revenge, in cases like this, I really do. But, until we have a perfect system of justice which never fails to condemn the guilty and ONLY the guilty, an irreversible penalty such as death carries too great a risk of error, IMO. How would YOU feel, should you ever be wrongly convicted in a capital case? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-know-them-but-im-still-shaken/339228/23 "2006-01-10T05:41:05Z")
> [@Q.E.D.](#): > > The DP isn’t punitive, it’s revenge, pure and simple. I disagree. Although the DP certainly can be about simple revenge, it can also be about having a 100% guarantee that someone won’t ever be able to get free and commit other crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-know-them-but-im-still-shaken/339228/24 "2006-01-10T05:43:40Z")
Listen up, you fucking retards. Opposition to the death penalty has nothing to do with having sympathy for the criminals and does not remotely indicate a lack of sympathy for victims. My opposition to the death penalty is based on two factors. One, that we have no way to ensure that we don’t kill innocent people and two, that on a personal level, I think it’s too fucking EASY for them. Why should slime like the guys in the OP be allowed to just get a nice quiet shot in the arm and go to sleep instead of- you know- actually having to SUFFER for a while? Special pleading about what the victims want is not only logically fallacious but completely disingenuous. None of you fucks would support a victim who DIDN’T want the death penalty, and there are many who don’t. So get that weak shit out of my face, ok? A system which cannot help but kill innocent people cannot be defended as just. That’s the bottom line, motherfuckers. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-know-them-but-im-still-shaken/339228/25 "2006-01-10T05:45:37Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I disagree. Although the DP certainly can be about simple revenge, it can also be about having a 100% guarantee that someone won’t ever be able to get free and commit other crimes. Yiu can have that with life in prison and the best part of a life sentence is that it gives you a 100% guarantee that you won’t kill the wrong person. ---
**Author:** ![Cerri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3bc359/32.png) [@Cerri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerri)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-know-them-but-im-still-shaken/339228/26 "2006-01-10T05:51:58Z")
> [@Q.E.D.](#): > > The execution and the lengthy appeals process that goes along with it is also funded by the taxpayer. In most cases, it costs more to execute a man than it does to imprison him for life. **The death penalty _may_ be an effective deterrent** , but it’s definitely not saving anyone any money. (Bolding mine) I don’t think it’s a deterrent at all, and many articles/studies have been done showing it may in fact have the opposite effect, what they refer to as the “brutalization effect” [http://www.prisonactivist.org/death-penalty/dpstudy.html](http://www.prisonactivist.org/death-penalty/dpstudy.html) > [@](#): > > For the 15 year period in which California carried out an execution every other month (1952 to 1967), murder rates increase 10% annually, on average. Between 1967 and 1991, when there were no executions in California, the murder rate increased 4.8% annually. The study also found that, in the four months preceding Harris’ death, the average monthly number of homicides in California was 306. In the four months following his highly publicized execution, an average of 333 persons fell victim to homicides, an astonishing 9% increase. > > “This data mirrors research from other states which has shown that, contrary to deterring murders, state-sanctioned killing may actually have a “brutalizing effect”, wherein the state legitimizes the act of taking another’s life,” stated Michael Godfrey, report co-author, “in that sense, the state may tragically be leading by example.” [http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=167#STUDIES](http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=167#STUDIES) > [@](#): > > Capital Punishment and Deterrence: Examining the Effect of Executions on Murder in Texas. Authors John Sorenson, Robert Wrinkle, Victoria Brewer, and James Marquart examined executions in Texas between 1984 and 1997. They speculated that if a deterrent effect were to exist, it would be found in Texas because of the high number of death sentences and executions within the state. Using patterns in executions across the study period and the relatively steady rate of murders in Texas, the authors found no evidence of a deterrent effect. The study concluded that the number of executions was unrelated to murder rates in general, and that the number of executions was unrelated to felony rates. (45 Crime and Delinquency 481-93 (1999)). > > Deterrence, Brutalization, and the Death Penalty: Another Examination of OklahomaÕs Return to Capital Punishment. In this study, author William Bailey speculated that if executions had a deterrent effect in Oklahoma, it would be observable by comparing murder rates and rates of sub-types of murder, such as felony-murder, stranger robbery-related killings, stranger non-felony murder, and argument-related killings, before and after the resumption of executions. Bailey examined the period between 1989 and 1991 for total killings and sub-types of killing. After controlling for a number of variables, Bailey found that there was no evidence for a deterrent effect. He did, however, find that there was a significant increase in stranger killings and non-felony stranger killings after Oklahoma resumed executions after a 25-year moratorium. (36 Criminology 711-33 (1998)). Between 1990 and 2000 the gap between murder rates in non-DP states and DP states increased hugely, and on the whole, _the non-DP_ states had lower murder rates. [http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=168](http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=168) > [@](#): > > As executions rose, states without the death penalty fared much better than states with the death penalty in reducing their murder rates. The gap between the murder rate in death penalty states and the non-death penalty states grew larger (as shown in Chart II). In 1990, the murder rates in these two groups were 4% apart. By 2000, the murder rate in the death penalty states was 35% higher than the rate in states without the death penalty. In 2001, the gap between non-death penalty states and states with the death penalty again grew, reaching 37%. For 2002, the number stands at 36%. A Sept. 2000 NY Times survey found that while 10 of the 12 non-DP states had murder rates below the national average, the Top 12 States for highest number of executions had murder rates above the national avg. [http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/deterrence.html](http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/deterrence.html) Let’s be serious. How many criminals, when committing crimes, are stopping to think about the possible consequences? How many of them while say, robbing a family at home as in the OP, are thinking rationally enough to say “hey, I better not murder these people, cause then I might get executed!” To me at least, the entire premise is ridiculous on it’s face. The death penalty is about vengeance, plain and simple, imo. I understand why people might _want_ vengeance in cases like the OP, really, I do. But it doesn’t make granting them that vengeance wise, or right, or moral. Nor does dressing vengeance up with terms like “deterrence” make it correct, or accurate. How do you teach people to not kill when the penalty for murder is being killed? When has “do as I say, not as I do” ever been an effective teaching technique? When you respond to violence with state-sanctioned violence, you’re only going to beget more violence. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-know-them-but-im-still-shaken/339228/27 "2006-01-10T05:57:29Z")
> [@Cerri](#): > > (Bolding mine)I don’t think it’s a deterrent at all, and many articles/studies have been done showing it may in fact have the opposite effect, what they refer to as the “brutalization effect” You’re preaching to the choir, here. That’s why I said “may” and emphasized it. I was going to add parenthetically: (but, probably not). I thought it would be clear enough without it. Guess not. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Cerri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3bc359/32.png) [@Cerri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerri)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-know-them-but-im-still-shaken/339228/28 "2006-01-10T06:04:57Z")
> [@Q.E.D.](#): > > You’re preaching to the choir, here. That’s why I said “may” and emphasized it. I was going to add parenthetically: (but, probably not). I thought it would be clear enough without it. Guess not. 🙂 Oh, I know, I didn’t think you were taking the opposite viewpoint, your statement was just a good kickoff point to show that it likely _doesn’t_ have a deterrent effect, since that seems to be alot of pro-DPs alleged motivations for keeping it. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![SnakesCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@SnakesCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakesCatLady)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-know-them-but-im-still-shaken/339228/29 "2006-01-10T06:12:04Z")
I can’t say I’m 100% against the death penalty, but I am leaning that way. I don’t see it as a deterrent, and I don’t see it as revenge. I see it as making sure some sick SOB isn’t going to commit his crime again. Life in prison needs to mean **life** in prison - not 10 years, not 20 years, not 50 years. Life. All of it. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-know-them-but-im-still-shaken/339228/30 "2006-01-10T07:03:33Z")
The death penalty is for primitives who can’t control the reptilian brain. ---
**Author:** ![AFAIKnow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a6a055/32.png) [@AFAIKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AFAIKnow)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-know-them-but-im-still-shaken/339228/31 "2006-01-10T07:20:13Z")
> [@Q.E.D.](#): > > There’s the rub. You can never prove guilt beyond ANY doubt. Bullshit. Plenty of people are convicted beyond a shadow of doubt. Or, to steal a term; “guilty to a logical, statistical or scientific certainty, beyond any doubt”. “Reasonable doubt” is enough if you realize the doubt must be reasonable. An unreasonable person may think that magical fairies did it and planted all of the evidence. I do think the current standard could be looked at. Perhaps the burden of proof should be much more than usual when it comes to the DP. Maybe a willingly offered confession, or video tape, or irreproachable witness(es) should be required. Perhaps there could be an independent group that studies all DP cases and must find all requirements met. I’m happy with many more murderers not being eligible for the DP if it makes sure the innocent is not put to death.[Brian Nichols](http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/11/atlanta.shooting/) is a perfect example of “beyond any doubt”. > [@](#): > > The law recognizes reasonable doubt as the standard, but it’s far from perfect. Innocent people _have_ been put to death in this country. Some may find that acceptable. I don’t. I agree, see above and my first post on the subject. > [@](#): > > The DP isn’t punitive, it’s revenge, pure and simple. I understand the desire for revenge, in cases like this, I really do. That is debatable. I do not strictly agree, although I do not think it is has nothing to do with revenge. But then again, if the person is guilty, I don’t care. I am of the belief that the DP has at least some deterrent factor. > [@](#): > > But, until we have a perfect system of justice which never fails to condemn the guilty and ONLY the guilty, an irreversible penalty such as death carries too great a risk of error, IMO. How would YOU feel, should you ever be wrongly convicted in a capital case? We will never have a perfect system of anything. If we can make the risk negligible enough that only those beyond any doubt are sentenced to death, than I think it would be wrong to abolish it solely because it may deter a crime of such cruelty as in the OP. None of this changes the fact that some, like \*\* GorillaMan\*\*, opposes the DP for the sake of the guilty, not only the innocent. And I find that repugnant and callous. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-know-them-but-im-still-shaken/339228/32 "2006-01-10T07:25:18Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > The death penalty is for primitives who can’t control the reptilian brain. No, the death penalty is to mete out proper justice to those who can’t control their reptile brain – with the beneficial side effects of guaranteeing that they’ll never harm anyone else and that they’ll serve as examples to others of what will happen to them (albeit in twenty or so years :rolleyes: ) should they fail to control their own reptile brains. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-know-them-but-im-still-shaken/339228/33 "2006-01-10T07:40:33Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > No, the death penalty is to mete out proper justice to those who can’t control their reptile brain – with the beneficial side effects of guaranteeing that they’ll never harm anyone else and that they’ll serve as examples to others of what will happen to them (albeit in twenty or so years :rolleyes: ) should they fail to control their own reptile brains. Ah, but you contradicted yourself here. If a person is in thrall to his/her reptilian brain, then s/he is _de facto_ NOT being deterred by the DP, correct? The DP is a crappy deterrent and may even have the opposite effect, as has been pointed out with cites in this thread. The trouble is that it tends not to deter the impulsive fucks, mentally-challenged-but-evil cretins, and plain old pyschopaths who could use deterring the most. But the reason why we retain this “punishment” is indeed because of our thirst for revenge, coming to us courtesy of the reptile brain or whatever loci of that organ supercede logic and sense. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-know-them-but-im-still-shaken/339228/34 "2006-01-10T07:57:18Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Yiu can have that with life in prison and the best part of a life sentence is that it gives you a 100% guarantee that you won’t kill the wrong person. It’s a tradeoff. You get a 100% chance that you won’t kill an innocent man, but a \<100% chance that, if guilty, the person won’t kill others in prison, get parolled, or escape. I’d agree with **AFAIKnow**. If you want to make the standards tougher for getting a sentence of the DP I’d be fine with that. In addition, a life sentence doesn’t always mean you’ll be in for life.[ > [@](#): > > According to unpublished NCRP tabulations, the average time served in State prison by released homicide cases serving life sentences was 152 months in 1990, 151 months in 1992, and 146 months in 1994. ]([http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/html/cjusew96/meth.htm](http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/html/cjusew96/meth.htm)) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-know-them-but-im-still-shaken/339228/35 "2006-01-10T08:13:24Z")
Life without parole means life without parole. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-know-them-but-im-still-shaken/339228/36 "2006-01-10T08:38:49Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Life without parole means life without parole. Come on, not all lifers are serving without chance of parole. And even a lifer without parole can escape. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-know-them-but-im-still-shaken/339228/37 "2006-01-10T08:50:00Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > Ah, but you contradicted yourself here. > > If a person is in thrall to his/her reptilian brain, then s/he is _de facto_ NOT being deterred by the DP, correct? > > The DP is a crappy deterrent and may even have the opposite effect, as has been pointed out with cites in this thread. The trouble is that it tends not to deter the impulsive fucks, mentally-challenged-but-evil cretins, and plain old pyschopaths who could use deterring the most. > > But the reason why we retain this “punishment” is indeed because of our thirst for revenge, coming to us courtesy of the reptile brain or whatever loci of that organ supercede logic and sense. Mmmm…revenge! But seriously, I understand your point but I don’t happen to believe that a very large percentage of murders is committed by people who can’t help themselves. Certainly, the DP isn’t a one hundred percent deterrant, but neither are traffic tickets and think what the roads would be like without them. Most of the murders I’m aware of have been committed in order to acheive some specific goal. Often this goal is nothing more than wanting to leave no witnesses to some otherwise relatively minor crime. I recall the rash of senseless murders (mostly of convenience store clerks and filling station attendants) that occurred following the outlawing of the death penalty in the early seventies. One after another of these murders was committed with no more motive than to leave no witnesses to a $50 robbery. In fact, an entire family I knew was wiped out in just such a robbery forty-five minutes after I had stopped at the convenience store where the husband worked. Three lowlife motherfuckers took them into a back room, lined them up and shot them in the head. Forty-five minutes earlier the sweet and slightly overweight wife of the clerk (a quiet, soft-spoken guy who wouldn’t harnm a fly) had been cheerfully showing me the new diet book she’d just bought, while her beautiful, dark-eyed six-year-old son tugged at my pants leg wanting to show me a new toy he’d just gotten. These assholes got exactly $50 and were caught within a few days. They were sentenced to life in prison and guess what?..the triggerman escaped after ten or twelve years and has never been recaptured. Shortly afterward I was transferred to another town a hundred miles away and I know of at least three other cases where convenience store clerks were killed for the same reason during the first year I was there. Of course many murders don’t involve convenience store clerks, but to me this emphasizes the fact that not only does doing away with the death penalty remove a deterrant, it actually encourages murders that wouldn’t have happened otherwise. With regard to the assholes referred to in the OP, I’d wager just about any amount that the murders they committed were to cover up some other crime and not because they were in the grip of some homicidal urge they either couldn’t or didn’t have the time to control. As I said above, I beleive most murders are committed in relative cold blood by people who have specific, deliberate goals in mind, and IMO it is this type of murder that the death penalty primarily serves as a deterrant to. I also believe it causes people to recognize and accept (as I did in the fifties and sixties) that murder is the worst crime you can commit, and if you kill someone you will die as a consequence. I’ve never accepted this notion that the death penalty cheapens life. To me, abolition of the death penalty cheapens life as it makes the penalty for killing soneone less severe. How is that realistically supposed to convinmce would-be killers of the sanctity of life? ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-know-them-but-im-still-shaken/339228/38 "2006-01-10T08:52:00Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Come on, not all lifers are serving without chance of parole. And even a lifer without parole can escape. And even lifers without parole who don’t escape, such as organized crime and gang figures, can control events in the outside world regardless of their incarceration. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-know-them-but-im-still-shaken/339228/39 "2006-01-10T08:53:18Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > And even lifers without parole who don’t escape, such as organized crime and gang figures, can control events in the outside world regardless of their incarceration. Thank you, that’s a good point that I didn’t add. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-know-them-but-im-still-shaken/339228/40 "2006-01-10T08:53:21Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > And even lifers without parole who don’t escape, such as organized crime and gang figures, can control events in the outside world regardless of their incarceration. See also: Tookie Williams. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-know-them-but-im-still-shaken/339228.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-know-them-but-im-still-shaken/339228.md?page=3)