# I Didn't Realize How Much an Abuser Khan Was **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 10, 2016, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492 "2016-09-10T01:58:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2016, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/61 "2016-09-10T23:24:35Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > It’s been twenty-odd years since I saw the movie. What’s the problem? That they wouldn’t be able to detect gaseous emissions through a cloak? 😕 That it was the Excelsior, which they were not on, not the Enterprise, on which they were, that had the space fart detection equipment. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2016, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/62 "2016-09-10T23:27:19Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > That it was the Excelsior, which they were not on, not the Enterprise, on which they were, that had the space fart detection equipment. Aha! Much appreciated! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2016, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/63 "2016-09-10T23:30:05Z")
Nitpick: > [@ivylass](#): > > … the explosion of Seti Alpha Six … > [@ivylass](#): > > Seti Alpha VI exploded, shifting the orbit of Seti Alpha V. … all the planets of the Seti Alpha… > [@ivylass](#): > > Seti Alpha Sun: … > > Seti Alpha Sun: … > [@BigT](#): > > … on Seti Alpha IV, …messed up Seti Alpha V’s orbit. > > … blown up Seti Alpha V or something. > > … Just have it be Seti Alpha V. It’s _ **Ceti** _ Alpha V/VI. From the constellation _Cetus_, the sea monster or the whale. Compare “cetacean.” ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2016, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/64 "2016-09-10T23:42:51Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > Yeah, that’s the other thing…Walter Koenig wasn’t part of the cast when _Space Seed_ aired. We’re to assume Chekov hadn’t been promoted to bridge crew yet or something but was somewhere on the ship and heard through gossip what happened. Chekov kept Khan waiting to use a head. When Chekov finally emerged, Khan said, “I shall never forget you!” ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2016, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/65 "2016-09-10T23:45:13Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > Yeah, that’s the other thing…Walter Koenig wasn’t part of the cast when _Space Seed_ aired. We’re to assume Chekov hadn’t been promoted to bridge crew yet or something but was somewhere on the ship and heard through gossip what happened. I don’t really think this is a problem. In fiction, we shouldn’t expect to be shown every single thing. If Chekov and Khan say knew each other from “Space Seed,” then they must have met then. Period. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2016, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/66 "2016-09-10T23:47:17Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > It’s _ **Ceti** _ Alpha V/VI. From the constellation _Cetus_, the sea monster or the whale. **Nitpick:** It should actually be Alpha Ceti V/VI. Just like Regulus is Alpha Leonis, Betelgeuse is Alpha Orionis, Antares is Alpha Scorpii, and so on. Interestingly, Alpha Ceti is not the brightest star in the constellation Cetus, for reasons I do not understand: > **[Alpha Ceti](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_Ceti)** > > Alpha Ceti (α Ceti, abbreviated Alpha Cet, α Cet), officially named Menkar /ˈmɛŋkɑːr/, is the second-brightest star in the constellation of Cetus. It is a cool luminous red giant estimated to be about 250 light years away based on parallax. > Alpha Ceti is the star's Bayer designation. It has the traditional name Menkar, deriving from the Arabic word منخر manħar "nostril" (of Cetus). In 2016, the International Astronomical Union organized a Working Group on Star Names (WGSN) to catalog and stand... ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2016, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/67 "2016-09-10T23:53:45Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > f Chekov and Khan say knew each other from “Space Seed,” then they must have met then. Period. … Or the guy who wrote the script didn’t do his homework. I think this is more likely. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2016, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/68 "2016-09-10T23:56:41Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > If Chekov and Khan say knew each other from “Space Seed,” then they must have met then. Period. They probably just wanted to make sure it was Chekov who was tortured, since he can scream like nobody else! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2016, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/69 "2016-09-10T23:57:15Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > … Or the guy who wrote the script didn’t do his homework. I think this is more likely. :smack: He might have done his homework, or he might not have. But it’s irrelevant. In fiction, the failure to see something happen doesn’t contradict a later description of that thing happening. There’s absolutely no contradiction _within the bounds of the fictional work_ that requires explanation. It’s simply not the case that Walter Koenig’s not being in the cast during “Space Seed” nor Chekov’s not appearing in that episode implies that Chekov _the character_ was not on the Enterprise and did not meet Khan. That’s not how fiction works. If Chekov and Khan say they met back then, then they did. There’s nothing in any episode that contradicts that. If, in Chekov’s first appearance in Season 2, someone said explicitly, “Hey, Pavel, this is the first time you are joining us on this starship,” then that’s different. But nothing like that happened, so there’s nothing to explain. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/70 "2016-09-11T00:04:44Z")
Two observations: 1. They sure have gussied up those external graphics! 1. _Damn!_ Her dress is short! The future looks good. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/71 "2016-09-11T00:06:45Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > In fiction, the failure to see something happen doesn’t contradict a later description of that thing happening. Ah, but if someone is not shown meeting someone else but later claims to know them, doesn’t that violate the rule about the gun hanging over the fireplace? :dubious: What’s that rule called again? I seem to have drawn a blank here… 😕 (I’m being facetious. There’s no need for an indignant rebuttal.) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/72 "2016-09-11T00:08:12Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > Chekov kept Khan waiting to use a head. When Chekov finally emerged, Khan said, “I shall never forget you!” Hey, when you have the space runs because your genetically superior GI tract can’t handle those weird colored cubes that come from the replicator…well, you TOO will remember that guy that kept you waiting. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/73 "2016-09-11T00:13:02Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > … Or the guy who wrote the script didn’t do his homework. I think this is more likely. :smack: DeForest Kelly noted during filming that Koenig was not a part of the cast, so it was improbable that Khan and Chekov had ever met. And director Nicholas Meyer had never seen an episode of Star Trek. He stated: “The chief contribution I brought to Star Trek II was a healthy disrespect.” So yeah, Meyer, who also wrote the script uncredited and unpaid, didn’t know and really didn’t care. I can accept that Chekov was part of the crew and just didn’t participate in the events of _Space Seed_, though. He could have met Khan in passing and just have had a face Khan recognized, even if he couldn’t put a name to it. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/74 "2016-09-11T00:14:08Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Hey, when you have the space runs because your genetically superior GI tract can’t handle those weird colored cubes that come from the replicator…well, you TOO will remember that guy that kept you waiting. **Nitpick:** In Kirk’s day, they were reconstituted, not replicated. In “Mark of Gideon,” he tells Odonna they have enough food on board to feed 430 people for five years. **Holy crap!** 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/75 "2016-09-11T00:16:46Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > I can accept that Chekov was part of the crew and just didn’t participate in the events of _Space Seed_. **[CHEKOV’S VOICE]:** Oh, I can accept it. But I won’t enjoy it! :mad: ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/76 "2016-09-11T00:44:11Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > In fiction, the failure to see something happen doesn’t contradict a later description of that thing happening. There’s absolutely no contradiction _within the bounds of the fictional work_ that requires explanation. By that logic, there’s nothing weird or creepy about Darth Vader being the father of \*\*both \*\*Luke and Leia… :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/77 "2016-09-11T00:46:25Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > By that logic, there’s nothing weird or creepy about Darth Vader being the father of \*\*both \*\*Luke and Leia… :dubious: Because …? To be clear, the two situations aren’t remotely comparable, but I’m interested in seeing your logic. ---
**Author:** ![standingwave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@standingwave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/standingwave)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/78 "2016-09-11T00:50:13Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Nitpick: > > It’s _ **Ceti** _ Alpha V/VI. From the constellation _Cetus_, the sea monster or the whale. Compare “cetacean.” Thus foreshadowing Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home all the way back in 1967. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/79 "2016-09-11T00:52:16Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Because …? Because they’re both “out of left field,” as it were. They create completely unexpected discontinuities that have to be retconned/fanwanked. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/80 "2016-09-11T00:54:01Z")
In any event, I was deeply annoyed (practically offended) when during _Into Darkness_, Spock-Prime said of the Khan he remembered: > [@](#): > > That being said, Khan Noonien Singh is the most dangerous adversary the Enterprise ever faced. Bull. Fucking. Shit. Even if we limit ourselves to just the first season of _TOS_, the _Enterprise_ dealt with a rapidly-evolving Gary Mitchell, Charlie X, Balok, the Talosians, the Romulans, Trelane, the Metrons, and the Organians. All of them were as or more dangerous than Khan, and several could have destroyed the _Enterprise_ with casual ease if they felt like it. And when it came time for the final battle in _Wrath of Khan_, Kirk bitchslaps Khan like the amateur he is. To me, that moment in _Into Darkness_ had a genuine “We’ve _always_ been at war with Eurasia” vibe to it - i.e. whoever the present enemy is, he’s the most dangerous one ever. And when the next enemy comes along, _he’ll_ be the most dangerous ever. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492.md?page=5)