# I Didn't Realize How Much an Abuser Khan Was **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 10, 2016, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492 "2016-09-10T01:58:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/81 "2016-09-11T01:07:13Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Because they’re both “out of left field,” as it were. They create completely unexpected discontinuities that have to be retconned/fanwanked. No, they are not the same. There is nothing in the Chekov situation that needs to be retconned. There is nothing in the Star Trek series prior to _The Wrath of Khan_ that implies that Chekov was not on the Enterprise when Khan was there during “Space Seed.” And in the dialogue between Khan and Chekov, it is explicitly established that they recognized each other. Period. Nothing to explain. _Wrath of Khan_ establishes that Chekov was there. There’s nothing in any of the shows up to that point that contradicts that. No discontinuity. No retconning required, because no continuity was ever broken. It doesn’t matter that Walter Koenig wasn’t in the cast during “Space Seed.” It doesn’t matter that Chekov doesn’t appear on screen until Season 2. There is nothing _within the confines of the show_ that says that Chekov was not somewhere there for Khan to encounter him. There _is_ something to be explained, perhaps, in Star Wars, because we are shown a budding love triangle among Han-Leia-Luke, and we are shown a kiss between Luke and Leia, and some on-screen lusting after Leia by Luke. Then we are explicitly shown that Darth Vader is the father of Luke and Leia. That creates the situation. It’s creepy because the movie shows explicitly that they are siblings and shows explicitly some romantic connection between them. The two aren’t remotely comparable. Fiction is informed only by what appears within the four corners of the story, not by external knowledge of casting. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/82 "2016-09-11T01:14:39Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > There is nothing in the Star Trek series prior to _The Wrath of Khan_ that implies that Chekov was not on the Enterprise when Khan was there during “Space Seed.” If you’re 100% satisfied with the “Chekov was on board the \*Enterprise \*at the same time Khan was, we just didn’t see him until the start of the second season” explanation, fine, so be it. I’ll not debate the issue. To my mind, however, it’s just lame fanwanking to cover up lazy scriptwriting. The \*\*real \*\*reason Chekov was in that landing party was so we could see him be tortured and hear him scream once again. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/83 "2016-09-11T01:26:04Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > If you’re 100% satisfied with the “Chekov was on board the \*Enterprise \*at the same time Khan was, we just didn’t see him until the start of the second season” explanation, fine, so be it. I’ll not debate the issue. It’s not a matter of “being satisfied.” It’s that there’s _nothing_ in the text of the story that is contradictory. > [@](#): > > To my mind, however, it’s just lame fanwanking to cover up lazy scriptwriting. Imagine you could read the mind of the scriptwriter, and know for sure whether (1) they knew that Walter Koenig was not in the cast during “Space Seed,” (2) they did not bother to find out whether Walter Koenig was not in the cast during “Space Seed.” Either way, it makes no difference, because the text of the story itself—which is all that exists in a fictional world—doesn’t say one way or the other, _until_ the scene in “Wrath of Khan” where Chekov and Khan recognize each other. That’s it, the fictional fact is established, and there’s nothing in the preceding text that contradicts it. So there’s nothing to explain. No “fanwanking” is needed, because there was never anything in the show that required this to be explained. You tell me. What, _in the text of the show itself_, creates discontinuity or any contradiction with “Wrath of Khan”? As I said, if there was some dialogue in Season 2 that established that Chekov was new to the crew, that’s a different story, but there isn’t. So where is this information coming from _in the show_ that you think is contradicted by “Wrath of Khan”? > [@](#): > > The \*\*real \*\*reason Chekov was in that landing party was so we could see him be tortured and hear him scream once again. You could say something like that about anything in any script. It is irrelevant to any claim of discontinuity. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/84 "2016-09-11T01:31:14Z")
I don’t see what the problem is; there was no “Welcome Aboard, Chekov” episode that was set after _Space Seed_. Similarly, George Takei missed a number of episodes in the second season because he was off filming _The Green Berets_, but I’m not aware of any in-universe mention that Sulu was not aboard the _Enterprise_ during those episodes, so there’s no reason to assume the character was absent from the ship just because the actor was absent from the show. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/85 "2016-09-11T01:33:29Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s not a matter of “being satisfied.” It’s that there’s nothing in the text of the story that is contradictory. What part of “Fine, I’ll not debate the issue” do you not understand? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/86 "2016-09-11T01:38:53Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > What part of “I’ll not debate the issue” do you not understand? 😕 If you don’t want to debate, then you won’t post a reply. That won’t stop me from making my argument. This is a public discussion and there are other people reading it and responding to it. What you decide to do about it isn’t the end-all and be-all of the conversation The fact is that your stance on this issue represents a false reading of a fictional text, so if you keep posting on this position, it’s legitimate for me to contradict you. That’s not to say I won’t get bored at some point, but your declaring an intent not to debate doesn’t affect my decision on whether to post or not. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/87 "2016-09-11T01:41:38Z")
Is it ever explained why Mr. Singh is clean-shaven? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/88 "2016-09-11T01:44:27Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Is it ever explained why Mr. Singh is clean-shaven? Not all Sikhs in the real world today keep uncut/unshaven beards, especially after 1984. And who knows what changes in Sikh culture have taken place in the fictional world of Star Trek, in which there was a Eugenics War in the 1990s. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/89 "2016-09-11T01:45:35Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Yeah. It would have made a ton more sense if they went the other direction. They thought they were on Seti Alpha IV, but it had exploded in some way that messed up Seti Alpha V’s orbit. > > They could even play it off (later in the movie) as Starfleet thinking Khan had blown up Seti Alpha V or something. > > Not that I really understood why that plot point was even in there. Just have it be Seti Alpha V. Have Chekhov, not being a bridge officer, not know exactly where Kirk had let Khan off and have Kirk not have recorded it. (That way the stuff about Khan remembering where he’d dropped him off still work. Get rid of that, and you don’t need any explanation for Chekhov didn’t know.) You still need some explanation for why Reliant would beam two people down to check the planet out. When Kirk exiles Kahn to Ceti Alpha V in _Space Seed_, he says something about it being untamed but able to support life. If that were still the case, Reliant (looking for a lifeless planet to test Genesis) would have performed a scan from orbit, seen lots of plants and animals, and proceeded to whatever their next candidate was. That Ceti Alpha VI exploded explains why Chekov didn’t remember, and why the planet was so nearly lifeless that they beamed down to see for themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/90 "2016-09-11T01:48:57Z")
> [@Jim\_s\_Son](#): > > I suppose also if you have an historian who studies the past they sometimes overlook flaws in people. You saw that a few years ago when the skeleton of Richard III. There was some woman (Philippa Gregory?) who spearheaded the excavation and when she saw a reconstruction based on his skull said in front of cameras “That isn’t the face of a man who murders his children”. Hello!!! Wasn’t she also the one insisting that the tales of him being “hunchback” (having scoliosis, really) were just his enemies slander and was really, really upset when it turned out that yes, he _did_ have scoliosis? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/91 "2016-09-11T02:02:19Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > You still need some explanation for why Reliant would beam two people down to check the planet out. When Kirk exiles Kahn to Ceti Alpha V in _Space Seed_, he says something about it being untamed but able to support life. If that were still the case, Reliant (looking for a lifeless planet to test Genesis) would have performed a scan from orbit, seen lots of plants and animals, and proceeded to whatever their next candidate was. That Ceti Alpha VI exploded explains why Chekov didn’t remember, and why the planet was so nearly lifeless that they beamed down to see for themselves. I take the point of Ceti Alpha VI exploding to be that Chekov does in fact remember, but that he thinks they are on a different planet than they are. As soon as he hears “Ceti Alpha V,” he seems to realize what happened. So all of that would still work if they think they’re looking at Ceti Alpha IV. I just also think that they could have done it with exploding a planet at all. Since Chekov wasn’t in Space Seed, he’s the one crew member unlikely to remember. There are plenty of ways to make CA5 lifeless without exploding a planet and somehow moving the orbit of all the rest. And I thought it was spelled “Ceti Alpha V,” but I deferred to everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/92 "2016-09-11T02:14:00Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > That’s not to say I won’t get bored at some point, but your declaring an intent not to debate doesn’t affect my decision on whether to post or not. This becomes tedious. I find my self growing … fatigued. Perhaps we can continue this … debate … at some other time. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/93 "2016-09-11T02:25:02Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > This becomes tedious. I find my self growing … fatigued. > > Perhaps we can continue this … debate … at some other time. It seems like you want to keep discussing. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/94 "2016-09-11T02:53:04Z")
Google search says Koenig’s first episode of Star Trek was _Amok Time_ or _Catspaw_, depending on if you’re looking at film date or air date. If someone feels like researching stardates for those episodes, maybe we can nail down once and for all if they were concurrent with _Space Seed_ and that Chekov was on the Enterprise. (Yes, I know the stardates meant little on TOS, but at least we can get some sort of idea.) ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/95 "2016-09-11T02:56:21Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > If you’re 100% satisfied with the “Chekov was on board the \*Enterprise \*at the same time Khan was, we just didn’t see him until the start of the second season” explanation, fine, so be it. I’ll not debate the issue. > > To my mind, however, it’s just lame fanwanking to cover up lazy scriptwriting. The \*\*real \*\*reason Chekov was in that landing party was so we could see him be tortured and hear him scream once again. Some reason Chekov couldn’t have been on a different shift? The crew we see on the show is not on the bridge 24/7. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/96 "2016-09-11T04:32:19Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > In retrospect, Khan did have a point…Starfleet just dropped them off with minimal supplies and never bothered to check on them. If Kirk were going to circumvent the legal process, skipping a trial and a court martial to impose his own sentence of exiling the accused on a harsh planet, doesn’t he own the responsibility of making sure they could survive and thrive? Of course, ban them from ever leaving the planet, but he did just drop them off and sail on his merry way. My head canon is the info go buggered up when Memory Alpha bit it. Kirk DID pass the info up the ladder but it got lost or rerouted or whatever…but Kirk DID do the paperwork. Maybe Ceti Alpha 4 (or whatever ) didnt blow up?? Maybe Section 31 blew it up as part of some byzantine plan. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/97 "2016-09-11T04:40:51Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > If someone feels like researching stardates for those episodes, maybe we can nail down once and for all if they were concurrent with _Space Seed_ and that Chekov was on the Enterprise. (Yes, I know the stardates meant little on TOS, but at least we can get some sort of idea.) It’s actually easy to get the stardates - MA includes stardate on all the episode lists. Catspaw is the earliest of the three episodes, set on stardate 3018.2. Space Seed takes place from 3141.9 to 3143.1. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/98 "2016-09-11T04:43:01Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > If someone feels like researching stardates for those episodes, maybe we can nail down once and for all if they were concurrent with _Space Seed_ and that Chekov was on the Enterprise. (Yes, I know the stardates meant little on TOS, but at least we can get some sort of idea.) Someone’s already done that. I don’t know who, or what the results were, but it’s _Star Trek_ so someone’s already done that. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/99 "2016-09-11T04:55:23Z")
> [@Kamino\_Neko](#): > > It’s actually easy to get the stardates - MA includes stardate on all the episode lists. > > Catspaw is the earliest of the three episodes, set on stardate 3018.2. Space Seed takes place from 3141.9 to 3143.1. _Catspaw_(10-27-67) [aired well after](http://startreklist.blogspot.com/2011/04/list-of-all-star-trek-episodes-sorted_05.html)_Space Seed._(2-16-67) ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/100 "2016-09-11T05:08:31Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > _Catspaw_(10-27-67) [aired well after](http://startreklist.blogspot.com/2011/04/list-of-all-star-trek-episodes-sorted_05.html)_Space Seed._(2-16-67) Yes? And? That has literally nothing to do with the stardates. Go back and reread the discussion. Just reread the post I was responding to, even. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492.md?page=6)