# I Didn't Realize How Much an Abuser Khan Was **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 10, 2016, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492 "2016-09-10T01:58:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Gretchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8edcca/32.png) [@Gretchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gretchion)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/101 "2016-09-11T06:17:32Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > Yeah, that bugged me too. Seti Alpha VI exploded, shifting the orbit of Seti Alpha V. So unless all the planets of the Seti Alpha solar system switched positions, how could they land on the fifth planet thinking it’s the sixth? Because they approached the solar system from the outside. If Ceti Alpha VI was the outermost planet, its explosion would leave Ceti Alpha V as the outermost planet. They didn’t bother checking how many planets were between them and the sun. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/102 "2016-09-11T17:49:12Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Some reason Chekov couldn’t have been on a different shift? Watch. On a naval vessel, you don’t work a shift, you stand a watch. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/103 "2016-09-11T17:50:52Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > It seems like you want to keep discussing. I don’t mind discussing things. I just object to flogging dead horses. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/104 "2016-09-11T18:16:37Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Watch. On a naval vessel, you don’t work a shift, you stand a watch. Sure. In _this_ century. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/105 "2016-09-11T18:18:14Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > I don’t mind discussing things. I just object to flogging dead horses. If you don’t want to talk about it then don’t talk about it, instead of telling us over and over that you don’t want to talk about it ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/106 "2016-09-11T18:32:40Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Watch. On a naval vessel, you don’t work a shift, you stand a watch. Memory Alpha-[Duty shift.](http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Duty_shift) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/107 "2016-09-11T19:25:08Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > No, they are not the same. There is nothing in the Chekov situation that needs to be retconned. There is nothing in the Star Trek series prior to _The Wrath of Khan_ that implies that Chekov was not on the Enterprise when Khan was there during “Space Seed.” And in the dialogue between Khan and Chekov, it is explicitly established that they recognized each other. Period. Nothing to explain. _Wrath of Khan_ establishes that Chekov was there. There’s nothing in any of the shows up to that point that contradicts that. No discontinuity. No retconning required, because no continuity was ever broken. > > It doesn’t matter that Walter Koenig wasn’t in the cast during “Space Seed.” It doesn’t matter that Chekov doesn’t appear on screen until Season 2. There is nothing _within the confines of the show_ that says that Chekov was not somewhere there for Khan to encounter him. > > There _is_ something to be explained, perhaps, in Star Wars, because we are shown a budding love triangle among Han-Leia-Luke, and we are shown a kiss between Luke and Leia, and some on-screen lusting after Leia by Luke. Then we are explicitly shown that Darth Vader is the father of Luke and Leia. That creates the situation. It’s creepy because the movie shows explicitly that they are siblings and shows explicitly some romantic connection between them. > > The two aren’t remotely comparable. Fiction is informed only by what appears within the four corners of the story, not by external knowledge of casting. Yeah, that’s a weird comparison, because Luke and Leia being siblings isn’t a discontinuity in anyway. It’s generally assumed that their relation was a last minute ass-pull because, as genre-savvy viewers, we were able to recognize the textual cues that indicated they were setting up a romantic triangle between the three principle characters. But that comes from our understanding of film as artifice, and not, as you say, from within the four corners of the story. Luke and Leia being revealed as siblings contradicts our genre expectations, but not the internal logic of the story. I guess it kind of highlights the way Chekov not being on the show in season one is also not a discontinuity, though, because the only way to know that is to know the original air date of the TV show, which is also not knowledge that exists within the story. If you gave all the TOS episodes to someone who had never seen the show, and told them to assemble them in chronological order, you wouldn’t get anything like the broadcast order, because the only internal clue about order (other than that one two parter) is the star date, and that shit is all over the map. If you go by star dates, Chekov \*was \*part of the bridge crew during season one, because a lot of season 2 episodes have earlier star dates than season 1 episodes. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/108 "2016-09-12T02:21:27Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > because the only internal clue about order (other than that one two parter) is the star date, and that shit is all over the map. [nerd hat on] There are some moments that include elements from or references to earlier events: - “I, Mudd” clearly takes place after “Mudd’s Women” - “Where No Man Has Gone Before” is referenced more obliquely in “By Any Other Name” (Kirk says with some melancholy that they’d been to the edge of the galaxy before) - The bluff from “The Corbomite Maneuver” is re-used in “The Deadly Years” - George Samuel Kirk is referenced in the present tense in “What are Little Girls Made Of”, and is shown dead in “Operation: Annihilate!” - The ship travels back in time to the 1960s accidentally in “Tomorrow is Yesterday”, on purpose in “Assignment Earth” -others, I’m sure [/nerd hat never comes off] ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/109 "2016-09-12T02:34:50Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > “Where No Man Has Gone Before” is referenced more obliquely in “By Any Other Name” (Kirk says with some melancholy that they’d been to the edge of the galaxy before). He also reminded Spock that he’d used his telepathic powers to trick the guard on Eminiar VII, a direct reference to “A Taste of Armageddon.” ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/110 "2016-09-12T02:51:59Z")
> [@standingwave](#): > > Wait, didn’t he respect her boundaries?Lt. Marla McGivers: I don’t know if you’re going to like living in our time. > Khan Noonien Singh: Then I’ll have to re-mold it to my liking. > Lt. Marla McGivers: [Khan moves in to embrace Marla] Please don’t. > Khan Noonien Singh: [pushes her away] Go. Or stay, but do it because it is what you _wish_ to do! > [awkward pause] > Khan Noonien Singh: Well? > Lt. Marla McGivers: I’ll stay a little longer. > Khan Noonien Singh: How many minutes do you graciously offer? > Lt. Marla McGivers: I only meant… > Khan Noonien Singh: This grows tiresome. You must now _ask_ to stay. > Lt. Marla McGivers: [timidly] I’d like to stay… please. > Yeah, he’s a dick. 50 Shades of Khan? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/111 "2016-09-12T03:05:33Z")
> [@simster](#): > > 50 Shades of Khan? Well, he did whisk her off to Fantasy Island… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/112 "2016-09-12T06:03:20Z")
It was the 60s. Think _Mad Men_, if you weren’t there. I just watched _Who Mourns for Adonis_ tonight, and it’s even worse. Women were still weak, emotional creatures who screamed at the slightest hint of danger. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/113 "2016-09-12T06:16:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I just watched _Who Mourns for Adonis_ tonight, and it’s even worse. Women were still weak, emotional creatures who screamed at the slightest hint of danger. Marla and Carolyn would have gotten on great together. :o **Nitpick:** “Adonais,” not “Adonis.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/114 "2016-09-12T13:20:10Z")
Their fake eyelashes might get all tangled up together, though in the love scenes! ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/115 "2016-09-12T13:23:40Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > … And they don’t notice that the ninth planet is missing?!? :eek: They probably figured it had been reclassified and there was no 9th planet anymore. #freepluto ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/116 "2016-09-12T13:27:04Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Their fake eyelashes might get all tangled up together, though in the love scenes! Not \*quite \*what I had in mind … but yeah! :o ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/117 "2016-09-12T13:51:59Z")
Well, both McGivers and Palamas were “soft science” types. Plenty of Starfleet women showed backbone in TOS. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/118 "2016-09-12T13:56:36Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > By the way, for those who haven’t yet seen it: > > [_Le Wrath di Khan_](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iauuuhpSfRQ) Haha! Awesome! Thanks for sharing. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/119 "2016-09-12T15:29:55Z")
IIRC, soft science or not, it is elsewhere established or implied in Trek that everyone of rank has gone through Starfleet Academy whatever their job description. But hey, since when have they cared about consistency… But yes, it is a 1966 show and 1966 mainstream attitudes will show up. Remember that the test audiences disliked the original Number One for being too bossy. And the very last episode alluded to a woman being excluded for being emotionally unstable (though it turns out she WAS, in fact). The stereotypical “womanly” behaviors were more often seen among the guest players – Lt. Uhura meanwhile was a tough lady who could hold her own against Mirror Sulu. In Space Seed we have in Marla someone who seems to be inclined in the direction of wanting an “alpha male” to take charge – which in turn through her specialty in history has led her to idealize an old time When Men Were Men (the way SHE sees it). However since she’s a competent researcher, that psychological trait would have likely been considered irrelevant to her posting and career because, heck, it’s a personal thing. One could also imagine that someone like her, growing up in Future-Earth society, may only know of this kind of abusive relationship from once reading about it. That up until now her entire experience has been of her contemporaries completely respecting boundaries and agency and she’s entirely unprepared. Khan, OTOH, knows right away when he’s looking at someone who craves to be worthy of him and fears his rejection. > [@Gretchion](#): > > Because they approached the solar system from the outside. If Ceti Alpha VI was the outermost planet, its explosion would leave Ceti Alpha V as the outermost planet. They didn’t bother checking how many planets were between them and the sun. Which would just reiterate that Starfleet does things backasswards. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/120 "2016-09-12T16:16:32Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > I was not sure how they assigned Roman numerals to the planets. If it was distance from the sun, then mixing up V and VI makes no sense. If it was in order of discovery, then the larger planets would get the smaller numbers, and the mixup would be sorta kinda plausible, if you do a lot of handwaving. I think two of the planets in our own solar system do switch places… Neptune and Uranus, I think? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492.md?page=7)