# I Didn't Realize How Much an Abuser Khan Was **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 10, 2016, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492 "2016-09-10T01:58:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/121 "2016-09-12T16:22:35Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > I think two of the planets in our own solar system do switch places… Neptune and Uranus, I think? Ex-Planet Pluto and Neptune I’m pretty sure…poor Pluto… ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/122 "2016-09-12T16:45:41Z")
Given that Uranus is beyond Neptune, does that mean Pluto and Charon cross two whole lanes? Someone get Charon a breathalysis… ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/123 "2016-09-12T16:54:58Z")
Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune and then the dwarf planet Pluto. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/124 "2016-09-12T16:57:12Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Given that Uranus is beyond Neptune, does that mean Pluto and Charon cross two whole lanes? Someone get Charon a breathalysis… Where did you get that idea? Uranus and Neptune may have danced 4 billion years ago but Neptune is firmly the furthest classical planet. Pluto will occasionally move closer to the sun than Neptune, but their orbits don’t cross. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/125 "2016-09-12T16:58:40Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Given that Uranus is beyond Neptune… Uhm … no, it isn’t. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/126 "2016-09-12T17:03:19Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Pluto will occasionally move closer to the sun than Neptune, but their orbits don’t cross. How can Pluto move closer to the Sun than Neptune if their orbits don’t cross at some point? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/127 "2016-09-12T17:06:40Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > How can Pluto move closer to the Sun than Neptune if their orbits don’t cross at some point? 😕 \He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two-dimensional thinking.\ ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/128 "2016-09-12T17:07:31Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > How can Pluto move closer to the Sun than Neptune if their orbits don’t cross at some point? 😕 Pluto orbits in a different plane. You could say Pluto moves within Neptune’s orbit, but their paths don’t cross. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/129 "2016-09-12T17:08:55Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > How can Pluto move closer to the Sun than Neptune if their orbits don’t cross at some point? 😕 Picture a big hula hoop. Now picture an even bigger hula hoop that has been flattened a bit so it’s more like an oval than a circle. Slide this hula hoop through the first one at an angle. They don’t have to touch at any point. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/130 "2016-09-12T17:13:09Z")
Here’s a bit better explanation: [https://www.quora.com/Will-Neptune-and-Pluto-ever-collide-in-their-orbits](https://www.quora.com/Will-Neptune-and-Pluto-ever-collide-in-their-orbits) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/131 "2016-09-12T17:16:22Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > In any event, I was deeply annoyed (practically offended) when during _Into Darkness_, Spock-Prime said of the Khan he remembered: > > Bull. Fucking. Shit. Even if we limit ourselves to just the first season of _TOS_, the _Enterprise_ dealt with a rapidly-evolving Gary Mitchell, Charlie X, Balok, the Talosians, the Romulans, Trelane, the Metrons, and the Organians. All of them were as or more dangerous than Khan… Gary Mitchell was a danger to himself and Dr. Whatsherface, but not to the Enterprise; by the time his power ramped up he was already stranded. Charlie X was not an enemy. Balok was not an enemy. The Romulans were perhaps more dangerous in aggregate, but in Balance of Terror they were only one ship whose danger came from surprise more than power. Trelane was not an enemy. The Organians were certainly not enemies. Trelane and Balok were antagonists for the Enterprise in the literary sense, to be sure. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/132 "2016-09-12T17:22:46Z")
Here’s an illustration of Pluto’s orbit with respect to the outer planets. Its orbit is inclined about 17° relative to the ecliptic, so it comes closer to the sun than Neptune without actually crossing its orbit. > **[frank's web space](https://www.frankswebspace.org.uk)** > > it's good to nurture our higher aspirations as well as gratifying our senses! ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/133 "2016-09-12T17:28:10Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > Here’s an illustration of Pluto’s orbit with respect to the outer planets. Its orbit is inclined about 17° relative to the ecliptic, so it comes closer to the sun than Neptune without actually crossing its orbit. > > [http://www.frankswebspace.org.uk/ScienceAndMaths/physics/physicsGCSE/images/solarSystem.jpg](http://www.frankswebspace.org.uk/ScienceAndMaths/physics/physicsGCSE/images/solarSystem.jpg) I know about Pluto’s weird orbit (I’m an amateur astronomer), but I read somewhere it’s possible the two planets will collide someday in the distant future. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/134 "2016-09-12T17:33:31Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Here’s a bit better explanation: [https://www.quora.com/Will-Neptune-and-Pluto-ever-collide-in-their-orbits](https://www.quora.com/Will-Neptune-and-Pluto-ever-collide-in-their-orbits) … Or maybe not. ☹ Still, the plane of an orbit can rotate over time. I wonder how much of an adjustment it would take for them to intersect at some point. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/135 "2016-09-12T17:50:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Gary Mitchell was a danger to himself and Dr. Whatsherface, but not to the Enterprise; by the time his power ramped up he was already stranded. By then, he’d already telekinetically killed one crew member and could easily have (but strangely didn’t) kill Kirk and Spock. His shouted threat to kill them all was being taken seriously, and though exiled to the planet, Kirk basically ordered the ship to nuke the site from orbit in case he was unsuccessful in rescuing Dehner (who had “turned” by this time, but Kirk didn’t know that). This is a far cry from the treatment of the Botany Bay survivors - Kirk beamed them down to Ceti Alpha 5 and didn’t even suggest exterminating them from a safe distance. > [@](#): > > Charlie X was not an enemy. Charlie X had destroyed one spaceship, was running unchecked aboard the _Enterprise_. He was certainly dangerous at a level beyond the mere sadism of Khan, what with his ability to warp reality and all. > [@](#): > > The Romulans were perhaps more dangerous in aggregate, but in Balance of Terror they were only one ship whose danger came from surprise more than power. That one ship had a superweapon that destroyed Outpost 4 with one shot. It might be slightly analogous to Khan’s position in _Wrath of Khan_ once he had the Genesis Device, though that was a single-use weapon and the bird of prey could fire multiple times. And of course there was the threat that it was merely the first in a potential invasion fleet. > [@](#): > > Trelane was not an enemy. The Organians were certainly not enemies. I think you’re overly focused on “enemy” (the original quote was actually “adversary”, my own use of “enemy” was a paraphrase). These two certainly qualify as “dangerous”. The latter had the power to force policy decisions on an interstellar level. > [@](#): > > Trelane and Balok were antagonists for the Enterprise in the literary sense, to be sure. Trelane was basically an even-more-ramped-up Charlie X - reality-altering powers driven by an immature mind. The First Federation flagship commanded by Balok was a gigantic sphere that could swat the _Enterprise_ like a fly (if anything, it looks at least comparable to a Borg cube, likely far more formidable). Even the tiny tugboat that separates from the sphere has a power level comparable to the _Enterprise_. It’s all well and good to be wary of Khan, but he’s like the asshole bully who lives down the street while the others are more like hurricanes that could destroy the entire neighborhood. Sure, the hurricane might not have any evil intent, but that’s not going to protect your house. In any case, my scorn is for the sciptwriter(s) of _Into Darkness_, or for whatever executive insisted on forcing a Leonard Nimoy cameo into the film, though it was a bad film anyway. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/136 "2016-09-12T18:02:46Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > Well, both McGivers and Palamas were “soft science” types. Plenty of Starfleet women showed backbone in TOS. They were officers. Kirk even commented about Carolyn that as soon she found “the right man” she’d be out of the service, as that was SOP for women. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/137 "2016-09-12T18:23:15Z")
I think we have to keep in mind that Starfleet is not exactly analogous to our current-day military services. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/138 "2016-09-12T18:23:19Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > … Or maybe not. ☹ > > Still, the plane of an orbit can rotate over time. I wonder how much of an adjustment it would take for them to intersect at some point. Long before then, we’ll have collided with Mars. Next July, I think. ---
**Author:** ![Hermione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/cdc98d/32.png) [@Hermione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hermione)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/139 "2016-09-12T18:44:58Z")
> [@](#): > > In Space Seed we have in Marla someone who seems to be inclined in the direction of wanting an “alpha male” to take charge – which in turn through her specialty in history has led her to idealize an old time When Men Were Men (the way SHE sees it). However since she’s a competent researcher, that psychological trait would have likely been considered irrelevant to her posting and career because, heck, it’s a personal thing. > > One could also imagine that someone like her, growing up in Future-Earth society, may only know of this kind of abusive relationship from once reading about it. That up until now her entire experience has been of her contemporaries completely respecting boundaries and agency and she’s entirely unprepared. Khan, OTOH, knows right away when he’s looking at someone who craves to be worthy of him and fears his rejection. Right in one. Thanks to Orion Press and [its rundown on early drafts and unused story ideas](http://www.orionpressfanzines.com/articles/unseen.htm), I know about [a little bit of unused dialogue from the shooting script.](http://www.orionpressfanzines.com/articles/spaceseed.htm) We first see Marla walking down the Enterprise corridor. A friend of hers stops her and tells her a crewman wants to know if she’ll show up at the rec deck that night. Marla answers, “Tell Mr. Afraid-To-Ask-Me-Himself that I’m waiting for a man who’ll break down my door and carry me to where he wants me.” …Wow. I mean, WOW. I can totally understand being bugged that someone won’t just come out and talk to you himself without needing go-betweens, but\*\*\* “break down my door and carry me to where he wants me”!!! * * * There’s been a published novel–To Reign In Hell by Greg Cox–that covers the exile on Ceti Alpha V and Khan’s relationship with Marla. From the little I’ve read of it, it depicts them as being happy together, which is rather nice, shows a different side of Khan, and does seem to make more sense in light of Khan’s rage and desire for revenge in TWOK. However, [this excellently written fanfic](https://www.fanfiction.net/s/1264422/1/Weeds) has a very pointed “be careful what you wish for–you just might get it” theme. Marla finds out firsthand EXACTLY what a man who considers himself superior to others and will not tolerate any dissent or differing opinions is like to live with–and what kind of leader he really is. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/140 "2016-09-12T19:06:50Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > They were officers. Kirk even commented about Carolyn that as soon she found “the right man” she’d be out of the service, as that was SOP for women. Might have been common, but was not mandatory. A married woman could serve on board a ship until she chose to become pregnant, and then would have to decide between accepting a temporary shore assignment or resigning from the service. Though this was never discussed on air, it was covered in _ **The Making of Star Trek** _. There was no prohibition against married couples serving together, but _ **TOS** _ was never stupid enough to insist entire families be brought on board. Presumably Starfleet personnel married to non-Starfleet spouses would have to decide between shipping out or staying at home with their wife/husband. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492.md?page=8)