# I Didn't Realize How Much an Abuser Khan Was **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 10, 2016, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492 "2016-09-10T01:58:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/141 "2016-09-12T19:39:40Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I think you’re overly focused on “enemy” (the original quote was actually “adversary”, my own use of “enemy” was a paraphrase). These two certainly qualify as “dangerous”. The latter had the power to force policy decisions on an interstellar level. > . > . > . > > It’s all well and good to be wary of Khan, but he’s like the asshole bully who lives down the street while the others are more like hurricanes that could destroy the entire neighborhood. Sure, the hurricane might not have any evil intent, but that’s not going to protect your house. But I think the evil intent is what defines an enemy. Adversary is perhaps a more defensible word, but it ought to mean something apart from simply dangerous – and in fact, you highlight that distinction yourself: a hurricane is not an adversary unless you’re being poetically descriptive; it’s dangerous, powerful, and can serve as an _antagonist_ in literary terms, but it’s not an adversary or an enemy. Both Charlie and Trelane fit this model perfectly: little kids with immense power they don’t know how to use in interactions with others not similarly equipped. (Although, really, Yeoman Rand could have taken one for the team and gotten Charlie calmed down. I’m just saying). ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/142 "2016-09-12T19:43:26Z")
> [@Hermione](#): > > However, [this excellently written fanfic](https://www.fanfiction.net/s/1264422/1/Weeds) has a very pointed “be careful what you wish for–you just might get it” theme. Marla finds out firsthand EXACTLY what a man who considers himself superior to others and will not tolerate any dissent or differing opinions is like to live with–and what kind of leader he really is. That’s a pretty good story. McGiver’s fantasy collides with the harsh reality in the form of a fist in the nose. I like that it wasn’t an accident, an random bit of coincidence, that Ceti Alpha 6 blew up. She eventually got her backbone! I also suggest [The Eugenics Wars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Eugenics_Wars:_The_Rise_and_Fall_of_Khan_Noonien_Singh). I’ve only read the first so far. it gives a good detailed insight into Khan. It also name drops a ton of other known characters. Not just ST characters (Flint, Redjac, Gillian Taylor) show up, but also other fictional ones (Jamie Summers, Hadji). ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/143 "2016-09-12T19:47:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > (Although, really, Yeoman Rand could have taken one for the team and gotten Charlie calmed down. I’m just saying). Oh come on! Charlie was Anthony Fremont, and if he didn’t get his way, it’s off to the cornfield with you! If Yeoman Rand had done that, Charlie would never have left her alone. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/144 "2016-09-12T19:57:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But I think the evil intent is what defines an enemy. Adversary is perhaps a more defensible word, but it ought to mean something apart from simply dangerous – and in fact, you highlight that distinction yourself: a hurricane is not an adversary unless you’re being poetically descriptive; it’s dangerous, powerful, and can serve as an _antagonist_ in literary terms, but it’s not an adversary or an enemy. Both Charlie and Trelane fit this model perfectly: little kids with immense power they don’t know how to use in interactions with others not similarly equipped. (Although, really, Yeoman Rand could have taken one for the team and gotten Charlie calmed down. I’m just saying). Fascinating as a linguistic dissection of “enemy, adversary, antagonist” might be, it was nevertheless a stupid line in a stupid film. I get that the makers of _Into Darkness_ wanted Khan (and Nimoy) as familiar touchstones for the longtime fans, but it was in service to a muddled mess of a movie - big and dumb and loud. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/145 "2016-09-12T20:10:46Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Might have been common, but was not mandatory. The point is that it was a social convention very much of the times that seems hopelessly outdated today. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/146 "2016-09-12T20:13:20Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The point is that it was a social convention very much of the times that seems hopelessly outdated today. Back in the '60s, yeah. In the 23rd century, who knows? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/147 "2016-09-12T20:14:42Z")
BTW, crazy plot holes in _City on the Edge of Forever_. 1. When McCoy changes history so that the Enterprise no longer exists, our merry band of the away team should not exist either. 2. When Spock reads EK’s obit in the paper, he doesn’t make note of the date. Really Spock? Not logical at all! 🙂 But then, if you have to suspend belief so that there’s a talking time portal surrounded by Greek or Roman ruins out in the galaxy somewhere… ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/148 "2016-09-12T21:32:24Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > BTW, crazy plot holes in _City on the Edge of Forever_. > > 1. When McCoy changes history so that the Enterprise no longer exists, our merry band of the away team should not exist either. I have no problem with that one. It is logical (in the world of time travel) that there is a proximity effect protecting users of the Guardian. Otherwise, it’s not much good of a tool. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/149 "2016-09-12T22:03:38Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > I have no problem with that one. It is logical (in the world of time travel) that there is a proximity effect protecting users of the Guardian. Otherwise, it’s not much good of a tool. Yeah, but what if someone reverses polarity on the proximity effect?? Huh??? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/150 "2016-09-12T22:10:51Z")
Then Dog help us all, I assume. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2016, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/151 "2016-09-13T00:47:17Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > When Spock reads EK’s obit in the paper, he doesn’t make note of the date. Really Spock? Not logical at all! I think Spock lost the image before the full date at the top of the page was revealed. He knew the year, but not the day. Somewhere on the Internet is a graphic novel (i.e., comic book rendition) of Harlan Ellison’s original script for “City.” It differs substantially from the filmed version. One difference was that the setting of the Guardian was much more elaborate than mere Greek or Roman ruins. ---
**Author:** ![Gretchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8edcca/32.png) [@Gretchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gretchion)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2016, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/152 "2016-09-13T03:14:16Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Which would just reiterate that Starfleet does things backasswards. So when a starship enters a solar system, they should go right to the star first, and then proceed outwards towards the destination planet? ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2016, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/153 "2016-09-13T04:46:20Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Long before then, we’ll have collided with Mars. > > Next July, I think. Well, did you evah! ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2016, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/154 "2016-09-13T14:08:56Z")
I think it was Gerrold who wrote this first, that we must remember this sort of show is not really about 23rd century humans. It’s about 1966 humans, given starships and phasers; and ocassionally throwing in some point the writer wanted to make about where s/he wished progress would lead. I get the feeling that in 2016 there would not be in the script the same denouement. Y’all think Marla would be allowed to choose to willingly remain with her abuser by a current writer? > [@Gretchion](#): > > So when a starship enters a solar system, they should go right to the star first, and then proceed outwards towards the destination planet? Considering the type of long range scanning tech an interstellar vessel would have, they can survey the system from a light-day away and count from the inside(\*). After all even decades earlier in TOS (Doomsday Machine) the Enterprise could detect if a system was missing a whole planet. Also, if Ceti Alpha was supposedly such a thinly-charted afterthought backwater, considering what Genesis involves, you would think they’d want to get the whole shebang mapped out in close detail and any errors corrected first. But of course it’s Trek, you just orbit the first rock that looks right and send the Captain and SO blindly gallopping into danger. (\*IF the numbering is based on sequence from the star. If it was based on the order in which the exoplanets were detected then you’ve got a mess) ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2016, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/155 "2016-09-13T15:03:28Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > (\*IF the numbering is based on sequence from the star. If it was based on the order in which the exoplanets were detected then you’ve got a mess) If you think about the murky middle detection wise you have a mess either way. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2016, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/156 "2016-09-13T16:14:21Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > I wondered about that myself… :dubious: 😕 :smack: Fan wank: The _Reliant_ dropped out of warp in a position (within the planetary orbital plane) where the navigator expected that at least one of the planetary bodies was going to be in an orbital position “hidden” from sensors behind the Ceti-Alpha star(s) (Within a sensor “shadow”, so to speak.), at least from that angle. In other words, they were totally expecting to be unable to see all of the planetary bodies from the get go. Another possibility: The navigator (or sensor operator) totally did not do their (admittedly routine, and possibly boring) job of comparing the expected positions of the planets (based on past surveys) to what they actually see upon arrival. Depending on the age of the info, and the quality of the survey teams, it’s possible small data errors are somewhat common in survey data. The navigator merely updates his ships database with the conditions they observe at present, and mark the updates to be downloaded to Star Fleet Bureau of Cartography on the next routine data dump. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2016, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/157 "2016-09-13T17:42:59Z")
I’m more bothered (right from the first viewing) by the laziness of the Reliant crew. They have one job - find a lifeless world to test Genesis. Not “close to lifeless”, not “something that can be transplanted”. Dead dead dead! Like they have something else to do? No wonder David hates Starfleet. Buncha idiots! And the episode proved it. Not only can’t the Reliant even tell the planet is not lifeless from orbital scanners, they can’t even tell what planet it is! What good are the sensors? If the sensors can’t even spot…how many? 15?..human lifeforms on an otherwise dead planet, how can they trust them anywhere else? (Kirk, in The Man Trap: Our sensors can spot a match down there!). The Reliant crews’ incompetence\* cost the lives of everyone on Regula, plus young Peter Preston, and Spock\*\*. \*You think I am too hard on them? I think Kirk should have been court-martialed and relieved of command for beaming those two redshirts into deep space in And The Children Shall Lead. They didn’t even check to see if there was a planet to send them to! If I was their family, I’d sue! “Under mind control” my ass! \*\*He should have stayed dead. it was a worthy death! ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2016, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/158 "2016-09-13T18:00:05Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Pluto orbits in a different plane. You could say Pluto moves within Neptune’s orbit, but their paths don’t cross. That’s crossing, what they don’t do is intersect. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2016, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/159 "2016-09-13T20:13:45Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > The Reliant crews’ incompetence\* cost the lives of everyone on Regula, plus young Peter Preston, and Spock\*\*. It just occurred to me that this is all Chekov’s fault! On the _Enterprise_, Spock was (for the TOS time frame, anyway) First Officer and Science Officer. Spock is the one usually shown doing the sensor analysis, and making reports of unexpected contacts. (And not the Navigator, which eventually was Chekov’s job.) When Chekov is first officer of the _Reliant_, and when we first see him in the movie, he is narrating an entry into the Log. In that narration, he states that the _Reliant_ is [continuing to be] temporarily assigned to the Genesis Program, scanning for lifeless planets. Importantly, he manages to sound bored, or at least frustrated with the tedium. Is the First Officer/Science Officer’s job to conduct the routine sensor scans upon entry of a planetary system? Chekov’s bored, his promotion/assignment to the _Reliant_ isn’t turning out to be what he expected it to be, and, possibly, maybe Captain Terrell doesn’t compare favorably to Kirk, in Chekov’s eye’s. Maybe Chekov got sloppy with his duties. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2016, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492/160 "2016-09-13T20:52:43Z")
They did offer to transplant whatever they found down there, which seems like a big old violation of the Prime Directive. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-didnt-realize-how-much-an-abuser-khan-was/765492.md?page=9)