# "I do know that people are dying." **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 10, 2003, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-do-know-that-people-are-dying/167745 "2003-04-10T10:15:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![sotally\_tober](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/46a35a/32.png) [@sotally\_tober](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sotally_tober)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-do-know-that-people-are-dying/167745/21 "2003-04-10T14:07:00Z")
Umm, you claimed Saddam killed (or lead to the deaths) of so many people. While i’m not saying that your claim isn’t valid, do you have a site for it, **Libertarian**? The figures in question. How large are they? And how accurate are they? Are they estimates, or documented? For I’ve heard that Saddam is a dictator, orders the deaths of entire villages, uses chemical weapons blah blah, i’ve yet to hear about a well-documented instance yet. The only thing i’ve heard about which makes the case of him allowing the use of chemical weapons is the gassing of an entire village near the iraq/iran border. And that is in question too, whether the gas used was released by Iraqi troops or Iranian soldiers. OTOH, i could be really ignorant. Hmm… So, any cites? (hopefully independent of US propagand and Iraqi doctrine) ---
**Author:** ![hawthorne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@hawthorne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawthorne)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-do-know-that-people-are-dying/167745/22 "2003-04-10T14:09:43Z")
I agree with everything in the OP. But I don’t think it gets us anywhere. I’m not even sure there’s anything to debate (although I’ve been wrong about that here before). To my mind, Lib, you and Coll are to a degree talking at cross purposes. Can I try this: I agree that the Jordanian woman’s argument is crap, _but_ if that’s what she (and many others) really think, it has to be taken account of when deciding how to achieve whatever goals we might have. ---
**Author:** ![Aro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b3f665/32.png) [@Aro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aro)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-do-know-that-people-are-dying/167745/23 "2003-04-10T14:32:16Z")
**tober** , here’s a [cite,](http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Human_Rights/KillingIraq.html) but I can’t vouch for its accuracy: > [@](#): > > Anyone doubting the scale of this terrorism should read British historian Geoff Simons’s scholarly and damning book, The Scourging of Iraq: Sanctions, Law and Natural Justice. Eight years of sanctions have killed 2 million Iraqis, writes Simons, including perhaps as many as a million children. That is the child population of a medium-sized American city. The Food and Agricultural Organization has estimated 560,000 deaths based on extrapolations, according to The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists. The Iraqi Health Ministry’s figure is 1,211,285 children, calculated in August 1997. It will be considerably higher now. > In a letter to the UN Security Council, former US Attorney General Ramsey Clark, who has led a commission of inquiry in Iraq since 1991, wrote that most deaths were preventable by the medicines and equipment denied Iraq. “They are dying,” he wrote, “from wasting or emaciation which has reached 12 percent of all children, stunted growth which affects 28 percent, diarrhea, dehydration from bad water or food…common communicable diseases preventable by vaccinations… There are no deaths crueler than these.” As for humanitarian exemptions to sanctions, writes Simons, “these are for public relations. Sanctions are designed to kill. A doctor might as well call for the humane implementation of torture.” A contrary article can be read [here](http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=1344) which lists many figures. > [@](#): > > In stark contrast to the regions of Iraq under Saddam’s control, infant mortality in the north is actually lowerthan it was before the UN sanctions began. In south and central Iraq, the number of children failing to survive their first year of life rose from 47 per 1,000 births before the sanctions were in place, to 108 per 1,000 births after the sanctions were instituted. Meanwhile in the north, where the same sanctions apply, infant mortality decreased from 64 deaths per 1,000 births to 59 per 1,000 births. Moreover, fewer Kurdish babies are being born underweight, and fewer mothers are dying in pregnancy. > > Also during the 1990s, deaths of children under age five in south and central Iraq more than doubled, from 56 deaths per 1,000 to 131 deaths per 1,000. In the north, by contrast, the death rate of such children decreased from 80 to 70 per 1,000. These numbers offer remarkably stark evidence that the suffering of Iraq’s overall population is due not to the sanctions, but to Saddam Hussein’s monstrous corruption. Both articles read like they have an agenda to meet, so the value of either is uncertain. ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-do-know-that-people-are-dying/167745/24 "2003-04-10T14:41:54Z")
Of course, at the same time the sanctions were supposedly “causing” the deaths of all those people, those in power had the wherewithall to live in luxury and build palace after palace. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-do-know-that-people-are-dying/167745/25 "2003-04-10T14:51:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MLS \* > \*\*Of course, at the same time the sanctions were supposedly “causing” the deaths of all those people, those in power had the wherewithall to live in luxury and build palace after palace. \*\* Well, **MLS** , unless you’re some kind of communist, that’s how it’s _supposed_ to work, isn’t it? Saddam gets rich coz he’s the capitilist controller of the oil. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-do-know-that-people-are-dying/167745/26 "2003-04-10T14:52:49Z")
_capitalist_, even. ---
**Author:** ![pennylane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@pennylane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pennylane)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-do-know-that-people-are-dying/167745/27 "2003-04-10T14:57:12Z")
Why is it so hard to understand that the embargo-related deaths cannot be blamed SOLELY on either the UN/US or Saddam Hussein? If the UN/US had never imposed the sanctions, those deaths would not have occurred, and similarly if Saddam Hussein had not invaded Kuwait in the first place, or had selflessly agreed to step down from power in order to get the sanctions lifted, or simply hadn’t been such a greedy bastard, those deaths wouldn’t have taken place either. ---
**Author:** ![Orbifold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orbifold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orbifold)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-do-know-that-people-are-dying/167745/28 "2003-04-10T15:24:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Desmostylus \* > **Libertarian, the OP, has apparently chickened out of this thread.** Said less than three and a half hours after **Libertarian** ’s last post. Keep your britches on, maybe **Lib** just had to go to work. ---
**Author:** ![Ben\_Hicks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bbce88/32.png) [@Ben\_Hicks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben_Hicks)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-do-know-that-people-are-dying/167745/29 "2003-04-10T16:28:01Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by OliverH_ > a)That’s false unless you claim that Saddam is immortal 🙂 Saddam’s demise would in no way translate to an end to the brutalisation the Ba’ath party has wrought on the Iraqi population thus far. In case it escaped your attention, his sons aren’t exactly peaceniks. Had the status quo been preserved then power would have passed to his second son Qusay > [@](#): > > b)you neglect to mention that the one government responsible for the brutal response to the uprising is based in Washington, D.C. While that _is_ true, the ultimate responsibility for the aftermath of the uprisings is not as relevant to this discussion as the fact that they were as bloody as they were. According to BBC news 24 the death toll of Saddam’s retaliation to the 1991 uprisings surpassed 300,000. Clear indicator that he will slaughter however many dissidents as is necessary to preserve his grip on power. Neither diplomatic pressure nor support for Iraqi insurgency groups would have toppled Saddam and I genuinely cannot think of any other alternatives. ---
**Author:** ![Ben\_Hicks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bbce88/32.png) [@Ben\_Hicks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben_Hicks)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-do-know-that-people-are-dying/167745/30 "2003-04-10T16:30:36Z")
I forgot to add a sentence to the first part of that post. It should read: > [@](#): > > Saddam’s demise would in no way translate to an end to the brutalisation the Ba’ath party has wrought on the Iraqi population thus far. In case it escaped your attention, his sons aren’t exactly peaceniks. Had the status quo been preserved then power would have passed to his second son Qusay. > > **Then again, Saddam might live for another 24 years, who’s to know?** Thought it was pertinent 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![CyberPundit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@CyberPundit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CyberPundit)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-do-know-that-people-are-dying/167745/31 "2003-04-10T16:46:00Z")
Most of Saddam’s atrocities were against the Kurds and Shia and the no-fly zones reduced them greatly. So it’s not clear that the numbers in the past would be a guide to the future. Also there seems to be an assumption that anything is better than Saddam which is not true. A Yugoslav-style civil war after the American troops leave could easily kill more than Saddam. Anarchy and revenge killings could also kill large numbers of Iraqis. And if the war increases Islamic radicalism in the region that could also kill many people. And of course a few years down the line you could easily have another brutal dictator take over the country. Knocking off Saddam doesn’t automatically mean Iraq will become less violent. ---
**Author:** ![GOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GOM)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-do-know-that-people-are-dying/167745/32 "2003-04-10T16:50:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Orbifold \* > \*\*Said less than three and a half hours after **Libertarian** ’s last post. Keep your britches on, maybe **Lib** just had to go to work. \*\* You noticed too? ::::chuckles:::: 😃 P.S. **I’m** the Old Man around here, in case anyone wanted to cast any more aspersions! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-do-know-that-people-are-dying/167745/33 "2003-04-10T16:51:07Z")
Forgive me if this seems naieve, but I cannot actually see where in her comments she says she is anti-war, or even pro-war. She says she dosent know the reasons as to why its happening. That is not the same as saying she believes it shouldn’t happen, or that it should. I can’t find the word to describe this train of thought. It’s not apathy as such, and it’s not ignorance. It’s… eh, my brain is mush. ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-do-know-that-people-are-dying/167745/34 "2003-04-10T17:00:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Desmostylus \* > \*\*Yes, Saddam Hussein killing people was bad. > > The invasion has (hopefully) stopped Saddam Hussein killing people. > > The invasion, on it’s way to the (assumed) greater good has killed yet more people. > > But your whole argument falls apart because of the implicit assumption that the _only_ way to save a lot of innocent Iraqi people was to kill some of those same innocent Iraqi people. \*\* No, killing \* innocent\* Iraqi people was never the intention. As it was for SH. We are not killing innocent people in order to save other innocent people. The killing of innocent people unfortunately takes place despite great effort to avoid it. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-do-know-that-people-are-dying/167745/35 "2003-04-10T18:54:52Z")
When Saddam kills people, the blood is on his hands. When we kill people, the blood is on our hands. People with hopes and families and things to look forward to are dying- who would otherwise live long lives- are dead because of our actions. It may have happened anyway, but that doesn’t mean that it’s okay to be the perpetrator. It’s not okay to do wrong just because the numbers will all add up in the end. That said, my primary objections to the war are far more complex than “people are dying”. But you have to see what this woman sees. She sees these people- who live lives as full and rich and worthy as anyone else- dead because of the actions of the United States of America. She hasn’t been given a good explaination for why this is happening. The Iraqui people never asked us to liberate them. They never had a choice either way. All she sees is that we came in and now there are dead people showing up on the evening news with US bullets lodged in them. What else is she supposed to think? ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-do-know-that-people-are-dying/167745/36 "2003-04-10T19:05:24Z")
Intent means everything. Let`s say you had thirty seconds to defuse a bomb that would have killed a thousand people. The only way to get to that bomb in time is to drive as fast as you can down a street crowded with innocent bystanders. You may or may not accidently kill one or more of those bystanders as you race to get to the bomb. But they will * all * die if you don`t at least try. You get to the bomb in time to defuse it. You accidently killed two people on the way. Was it worth it? ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-do-know-that-people-are-dying/167745/37 "2003-04-10T19:09:05Z")
ammend - But they will _all_ die… to - they “may” _all_ die. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-do-know-that-people-are-dying/167745/38 "2003-04-10T19:29:18Z")
I know of the perspecitive of someone who was caught in a similar situation to that of the Iraqis, many years ago. My dad was detained in Nazi-occupied Europe for several years. The Allies dropped many bombs on his city, and many civilians were killed. Some of his fellow detainees, which included people he was close to, were killed. What was his reaction to the bombers? He cheered for them! Becuase he knew that in the long run their only hope was for the Allies to win the war. Ed ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-do-know-that-people-are-dying/167745/39 "2003-04-10T19:55:04Z")
I think the way we got into this was utterly inept, and caused far more rancor and chaos than was needed. However, that may have been intentional, not inept as it seems. I don’t know which is worse (or, if intentional, if ultimately it really is worse: the case is still open) But then, on the other hand, I don’t know that we would have gotten into this war if not for this President and this administration. And this has been the right war for decades now. However, there are many many more things to consider than simply Iraq in this major, world-order changing move: many more lives in balance all over the world than just Iraqis. I don’t think people appreciate this enough: I don’t think the administration really appreciates it enough, other than a single triumphalist story. If we’re really weighing lives in the balance, we have to consider all these other implications as well. For one thing, there are many more right wars out there. This war could make them not only more possible in the world political scene, but easier to win: when dictators see how quickly we can attain victory, how quickly their own people will turn on them and curse their names, and how utterly ineffectual and ridiculous their own resistence and grand statements will look… they may well crumble or at least bend far easier than Saddam did (with the notable exception of Kim Il Jung. Saddam was meglomaniacal and murderous, but he at least seemed somewhat sane in a crafty, Stalinist way: Kim is just bat-shit nuts: just read about some of the things he does, like separating triplets, kidnapping movie producers to film Godzilla movies for himself, etc.) In other words, this could be the world’s ticket to everything LIBERALISM WAS SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT. Only Nixon could go to China, and maybe only Bush can free Tibet. I don’t know if that’s really the case. I do know that if that IS the case, and so-called liberals refuse to accept it simply because they hate Bush, they are denying their very roots at least on a pragmatic scale: letting their hate for imperialism dwarf their supposed hate for facism. On the other hand, it still remains to be seen how the Arab world will respond. Even a few crazies motivated by this could cause untold damage. Likewise, the concept of a meaningful international law is likely to be dead and dying for quite awhile, both because of the U.N. and in spite of it. When the U.N. is reduced to a glorified UPS aid delivery service, it’s failed its basic purpose. No doubt something will replace it eventually, but for now, the needle is closer to Pax Americana, and that is not likely to work too well for some people: not all of them bad guys either. America can still be Ugly America, very easily, particularly with a President that spent the last two years pissing off the rest of the world for no particular reason I can discern other than simple disdain. The point is, this war is much much bigger than Iraq. However, as I hope I’ve briefly outlined, it could be bigger in lots of different ways, some of them unbelievably good, some bad. We can’t predict events on such a large scale. We can predict, however, that people liberated from a tyrant (yes, a tyrant we delivered unto them, and a tyrant we helped trapped them in with, and all that: which is, however, now in the past, not the future) are going to be a lot better off, and they’re generally going to understand that we didn’t come to kill them. Whatever our motives really are, the fact remains that the Iraqi people will now be world’s better off, and in the long run, the killing is being stopped, not stepped up. The U.S. would have to kill Iraqi civilians at a phenomenal rate to even begin to catch up to Saddam. However, against the OP, I should point out two things. First of all, the OPs take on this: > [@](#): > > So says a Jordanian woman interviewed on CNN when asked whether Jordanians understand what the War in Iraq is all about. “I wish I knew what it is about,” she says. “I do know that people are dying.” Her comment is followed by the obligatory furrowed brow and sympathetic nod from her interviewer. seems over-the-top, especially when its claimed to be an “argument against the war” which there is no OP evidence of. There are plenty of real, live peace activists that say silly things like “but this war kills children, it must be stopped!” that are at least complete thoughts: there’s no need to beat the snot out of this particular random woman, fantasize floridly about her loved ones raped and tortured… all on a bunch of overheated and questionable assumptions about what she does or does not otherwise know or think about Saddam’s regime. Mind-reading and motive-interpreting on this scale, especially when their purpose is to aid a vicious personal attack, is… not so nice to see. Second of all, it is perfectly legitimate to criticize excess and bad policy WITHIN a war. We cannot allow people to parade around unfalsiable positions in which every civilian death, every accident, is all Saddam’s fault, and our side can do no wrong whatsoever: any state of conflict is equally good. We cannot allow people to make “first, shoot the hostages, they’ll never expect that!” a reasonable knee-jerk strategy for hostage negotiation, no matter how bad we want to nail the hostage takers. There are many legitimate positions on the wisdom of particular strategies, and many legitimate criticisms of people who act without regard for human life, even if their purpose is good. (However, that said, I think you’d have a hard time finding a military conflict in which one side, especially one side ONLY, displayed such a careful attitude towards civilians. So while some criticisms in specific places may well be valid, a grand sweeping case is very hard to make in this situation) ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-do-know-that-people-are-dying/167745/40 "2003-04-10T20:14:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Collounsbury \* > \*\*Well Lib my man, there is a lot of footage to be seen on a lot of different channels, so I really don’t see what the fuck you’re getting at, other than swinging around emotionally charged words. > > I would also say that your characterization of the thread is a bit off, but well, what can I say? > Yes, I am. That is true. And? > Well it strikes me as more of a rant than anything else as I hardly see the interview of one random Jordanian woman as something to debate. > > Understanding what is behind that view, a comment that really contains something more than here single expression, well that might be informative. All I see is you using charged words to attack a woman’s less-than-felicitious turn of phrase expressing her emotional position. On her expression, what can I say? I understand where she is coming from. > > By the way, Lib, old man (I have no idea what your age is) is one of my random britishism - I never thought of it as an insult so why not chill a bit. > > I did Lib my dear fellow, I did. If you simply want to rant on about the woman and the ‘weakness’ of her emotions, super, have at it. \*\* Way to answer the question! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-do-know-that-people-are-dying/167745.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-do-know-that-people-are-dying/167745.md?page=3)