# I don't believe ISIS is Islamic **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 19, 2015, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-isis-is-islamic/737967 "2015-11-19T08:29:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2016, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-isis-is-islamic/737967/102 "2016-04-25T23:08:06Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > I spent some time reading up on Reform Judaism, and if there was a part where they form into a rapacious criminal gang with a scorched earth policy, slaughtering all they encounter, all but at random, who will not accept subjugation, along with the illegal seizing of cities and land and the pillage and/or destruction of the resources found there, whether cultural or economic- if the Reform Jews have been involved with anything like that, I guess I missed that part. So what you’re saying is that when people disregard or ignore or go against things in a religious text that would keep them from doing bad things, they are not a part of that religion. But when they disregard things that you personally consider benign, that’s okay. This is utterly inconsistent, of course. Supposedly divinely inspired texts being disregarded or broken either show that those ignoring them can still be a part of that religion or not, but you want to pick and choose. Which ironically enough is what all religious adherents do in one form or another. Also, in doing so, you actually make _yourself_ the arbitrator of who is actually practicing a religion and who is not. Dare I say, you lack the discernment. You certainly lack the consistency that would at least make me think you yourself didn’t bend rules to fit your own agenda. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2016, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-isis-is-islamic/737967/103 "2016-04-25T23:36:48Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > So what you’re saying is that when people disregard or ignore or go against things in a religious text that would keep them from doing bad things, they are not a part of that religion. > > But when they disregard things that you personally consider benign, that’s okay. You are putting words in my mouth. “Disregard or ignore or go against things in a religious text” is not the standard I am using. Neither is “disregard things I personally consider benign”. Reform Jews had a debate, big whoop. ISIS has performed acts that match what inspired a prophet to declare another group godless. Is that really inconsistent of me? > [@](#): > > This is utterly inconsistent, of course. Supposedly divinely inspired texts being disregarded or broken either show that those ignoring them can still be a part of that religion or not, but you want to pick and choose. I think everyone would agree that even the most serious adherents of religions fail to adhere perfectly to the texts. They don’t just get summarily kicked out. I think there is a tough standard for that, and I don’t see how the Reform Jews meet it. > [@](#): > > Also, in doing so, you actually make _yourself_ the arbitrator of who is actually practicing a religion and who is not. Actually, I’ve tried to put Habukkuk in that role, since he is a prophet. I’m not aware of a phophetic condemnation that we could apply to what the Reform Jews have done. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2016, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-isis-is-islamic/737967/104 "2016-04-25T23:46:37Z")
I admit I haven’t been reading the thread all that closely, but I think I missed the part where you explained why Daesh should give two shits about Habukkuk. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2016, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-isis-is-islamic/737967/105 "2016-04-25T23:49:59Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > You are putting words in my mouth. Let’s see about that. > [@](#): > > Reform Jews had a debate, big whoop. ISIS has performed acts that match what inspired a prophet to declare another group godless. Is that really inconsistent of me? Yes. If your premise is “a person cannot be considered an adherent of a religion if they do not follow the divinely-inspired texts of that religion,” adding a qualifier of “the shit I consider important” is not only inconsistent but also presumptuous, hypocritical and ironic. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-isis-is-islamic/737967/106 "2016-04-26T00:40:55Z")
> [@andros](#): > > I admit I haven’t been reading the thread all that closely, but I think I missed the part where you explained why Daesh should give two shits about Habukkuk. Muslims accept the Old Testament prophets. YHWH = Allah. Therefore, Habukkuk speaks for Allah. > [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > If your premise is “a person cannot be considered an adherent of a religion if they do not follow the divinely-inspired texts of that religion,” adding a qualifier of “the shit I consider important” is not only inconsistent but also presumptuous, hypocritical and ironic. That is your misinterpretation of my premise. Again, what I am actually asserting is that Habukkuk provides a list of behaviors from which he concludes the Babylonians are godless. ISIS has committed those same acts. The Reform Jews, as far as I know, have not. On that basis I judge one but not the other. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-isis-is-islamic/737967/107 "2016-04-26T00:49:03Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Muslims accept the Old Testament prophets. YHWH = Allah. Therefore, Habukkuk speaks for Allah. So they disregard it, believe other teachings override it, or interpret it differently than you think they should. Wow. You’re really onto something here. It’s almost as if people who claim a set of beliefs sometimes pick and choose which ones they follow. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-isis-is-islamic/737967/108 "2016-04-26T01:52:20Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > I think everyone would agree that even the most serious adherents of religions fail to adhere perfectly to the texts. They don’t just get summarily kicked out. I think there is a tough standard for that, and I don’t see how the Reform Jews meet it. Well, how about this: > [@](#): > > if, instead, you reject My statutes, and if your soul abhors My ordinances so as not to carry out all My commandments, and so break My covenant, I, in turn, will do this to you: I will appoint over you a sudden terror, consumption and fever that will waste away the eyes and cause the soul to pine away; also, you will sow your seed uselessly, for your enemies will eat it up.'I will set My face against you so that you will be struck down before your enemies; and those who hate you will rule over you, and you will flee when no one is pursuing you. 'If also after these things you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins. > > I will also break down your pride of power; I will also make your sky like iron and your earth like bronze. 'Your strength will be spent uselessly, for your land will not yield its produce and the trees of the land will not yield their fruit. 'If then, you act with hostility against Me and are unwilling to obey Me, I will increase the plague on you seven times according to your sins. 'I will let loose among you the beasts of the field, which will bereave you of your children and destroy your cattle and reduce your number so that your roads lie deserted. 'And if by these things you are not turned to Me, but act with hostility against Me, then I will act with hostility against you; and I, even I, will strike you seven times for your sins. > > 'I will also bring upon you a sword which will execute vengeance for the covenant; and when you gather together into your cities, I will send pestilence among you, so that you shall be delivered into enemy hands. 2’When I break your staff of bread, ten women will bake your bread in one oven, and they will bring back your bread in rationed amounts, so that you will eat and not be satisfied. Yet if in spite of this you do not obey Me, but act with hostility against Me, then I will act with wrathful hostility against you, and I, even I, will punish you seven times for your sins. > > Further, you will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters you will eat. 'I then will destroy your high places, and cut down your incense altars, and heap your remains on the remains of your idols, for My soul shall abhor you. ‘I will lay waste your cities as well and will make your sanctuaries desolate, and I will not smell your soothing aromas. I will make the land desolate so that your enemies who settle in it will be appalled over it. You, however, I will scatter among the nations and will draw out a sword after you, as your land becomes desolate and your cities become waste. Then the land will enjoy its sabbaths all the days of the desolation, while you are in your enemies’ land; then the land will rest and enjoy its sabbaths. > > All the days of its desolation it will observe the rest which it did not observe on your sabbaths, while you were living on it. ‘As for those of you who may be left, I will also bring weakness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies. And the sound of a driven leaf will chase them, and even when no one is pursuing they will flee as though from the sword, and they will fall. They will therefore stumble over each other as if running from the sword, although no one is pursuing; and you will have no strength to stand up before your enemies. They will therefore stumble over each other as if running from the sword, although no one is pursuing; and you will have no strength to stand up before your enemies. But you will perish among the nations, and your enemies’ land will consume you. So those of you who may be left will rot away because of their iniquity in the lands of your enemies; and also because of the iniquities of their forefathers they will rot away with them. That seems…pretty bad. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-isis-is-islamic/737967/109 "2016-04-26T05:44:34Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Joshua and Moses are prophets. Let’s refer back to Tahrif, from your cite: “chronological and geographical inaccuracies and contradictions; theological impossibilities (anthropomorphic expressions, stories of fornication and whoredom, and the attributing of sins to prophets), as well as lack of reliable transmission (tawatur) of the text.” Attributing of sins to prophets is out-of-bounds. We can only conclude that if God told them to do it, it must have been ok. Are you making an argument that Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi is a prophet himself and is backed by God’s authority in his actions? I’m an atheist, so of course _I_ don’t think Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi is a prophet. The point is that _his followers_ think he has the authority–as “caliph” not “prophet”–to order the slaughter and enslavement of infidels. Or, according to you, his followers are just a bunch of closet atheists. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-isis-is-islamic/737967/110 "2016-04-26T06:03:36Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > That seems…pretty bad. I hate it when that happens! :mad: But seriously, the Chosen People are like the Bible’s red-headed stepchildren. They go astray, God kicks their asses, rinse and repeat. If such a fate befalls the Reform Jews, well, we’ve seen this movie before. The question was whether they are still Jewish, not whether God is going to force them to cannibalize their own children before driving them, quivering with fear, into the hands of their enemies. > [@andros](#): > > It’s almost as if people who claim a set of beliefs sometimes pick and choose which ones they follow. I wish I could trust people as much as you. I think sometimes there appear charlatans and demagogues who play on commonly held beliefs while not in the least respecting them themselves, even to the point of behaving entirely contrary to the beliefs they espouse. > [@](#): > > So they disregard it, believe other teachings override it, or interpret it differently than you think they should. I can accept that that could/probably would happen. Still, there is at least going to be an omission present if it is not acknowledged that, in this system of thought, a prophet lists a set of behaviors that qualify a group as godless, behaviors which the group in question sure seems to have committed. ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-isis-is-islamic/737967/111 "2016-04-26T08:42:12Z")
> [@BubbaDog](#): > > And the Wesboro Baptist Church believe that they are the true Christians as do many sects of Christianity. The overall theme in this play is that you get to justify your reason to act like a brutal selfish asshole by claiming God wants you to act this way. Wesboro Baptist Church is a despicable outfit, but only the morally moronic would equate them with ISIS. Saying hateful things and protesting doesn’t even come close to the shit ISIS is doing. ---
**Author:** ![nani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/58956e/32.png) [@nani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nani)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-isis-is-islamic/737967/112 "2016-04-26T08:47:47Z")
Whatever Habbakuk may or may not have said (since the source material, for Muslims, is not reliable), what Muhammad, as the final Prophet, said and did trumps it. If you find a contradiction, even a blatant one, Islamic sources always win out. So for most Muslims today, they will acknowledge that declaring some Muslims as apostates goes against what Muhammad said to do, and so even though they may loathe ISIS, they won’t do that. Thus, appealing to Habbakuk is pointless. For the minority of Muslims who are sympathetic to ISIS, they see ISIS’s actions as in line with what Muhammad did, which will always trump whatever any previous Prophet may or may not have said to do. Thus, appealing to Habbakuk is pointless. Anyone is free to draw the line between Islamic and not Islamic wherever they want, but a consequence of excessive arbitrariness is that the argument becomes unpersuasive. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-isis-is-islamic/737967/113 "2016-04-27T07:54:12Z")
> [@nani](#): > > For the minority of Muslims who are sympathetic to ISIS, they see ISIS’s actions as in line with what Muhammad did, which will always trump whatever any previous Prophet may or may not have said to do. Thus, appealing to Habbakuk is pointless. Is that how they see things? Do you have a cite for that? :dubious: I never said they weren’t human beings. If they were dogs they could never be reasoned with, only trained. But, obstinate as ISIS members appear to be, well either 1. they are Muslims as you claim. Then obviously they exhibit capacity for reason, even if only religious reasoning. They quote the Koran and think about it, act on it- admit it, there is reasoning there. So maybe 1 in 100 is susceptible to persuasion via religious instruction. or 2) they are not Muslims as I claim. Therefore your objection re: Muhammad is at least not guaranteed to apply. Some ISIS recruits were never Muslim to begin with. Some sure seem like the criminal dregs of failed-state society to me, so the prospect of some complex or disciplined religious/philosophical motivation seems unlikely, though possible. Bringing them the Word of Habukkuk might be convincing in 1 in 99 cases. (Here I invite you to imagine we have been having this conversation during a stroll along a sandy beach, and we came upon a stretch of helpless sea stars that had washed ashore. I pause and squint into the sunset, then fling a starfish back far out into the ocean.) For those, it would make a difference. But let’s say you’re right, it is futile. For all my efforts, I persuade none of them. Say tens of billions of years from now, parsec-scale disaster has rendered most of our solar system a nebula of cosmic dust. Advanced beings take a risk to probe the dust for clues of historical curiosity. Examining the dust under close-to-Planck-length resonant magnification, they note a message in the dust granule: “ISIS is not Islamic”, the ideation mostly holographically reconstructed in all its depth, and sublimated directly into their minds in a bluetoothy sort of way. The aliens are all like, “Yah, I know.” Finally, at the end of their ancient lives, they cremate themselves by hyperwarping their bodies billions of light-years beyond the heat death horizon of the universe in some weird acknowledgement of the futility of it all, as is their custom. Isn’t that universe, or even the possibility of it, better than one in which the dust granule is blank? ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-isis-is-islamic/737967/114 "2016-04-27T22:29:40Z")
> [@Waymore](#): > > Wesboro Baptist Church is a despicable outfit, but only the morally moronic would equate them with ISIS. > > Saying hateful things and protesting doesn’t even come close to the shit ISIS is doing. Sorry. Should I have used a multiplier for you. Maybe if you looked up the definition of theme or in some way tried desperately to get a clue. Here. Let me put it in simpler terms. Assholes use religion to justify their bullshit actions. Some bullshit actions are offensive. Some are horrendous. Same theme, different degrees. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-isis-is-islamic/737967/115 "2016-04-28T00:36:34Z")
> [@BubbaDog](#): > > Assholes use religion to justify their bullshit actions. Some bullshit actions are offensive. Some are horrendous. Same theme, different degrees. I think he would agree with this. The issue is whether the assholes are actually adherents of the religion that they claim to be. There isn’t a lot of consistency to how he decides that they are not. If you are acting good-to-indifferent about things (say, Jews who don’t keep Kosher) they are still Jewish. If you are acting bad but not genocidal (say, Westboro) they are still Christian. However if you are genocidal (say, ISIS), they are not Islamic. I do wonder if whether the inconsistency is based on the supposed severity of the deviation from the religion’s traditions or the fact that Muslims are not Jewish or Christian that allows him to think there is some kind of validity to his views. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-isis-is-islamic/737967/116 "2016-04-28T08:17:40Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Is that how they see things? Do you have a cite for that? :dubious: Of course it is. It is the entire basis of their claim to the Khalifa. Since your understanding of the theology is so limited, it is not going to be successful as an argument. This is a very sterile effort. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-isis-is-islamic/737967/117 "2016-04-28T15:49:29Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > North Korea is democratic! It’s right in the freakin’ name! More specifically, they are the People’s Democratic _Republic_ of Korea. So, I guess they are Republicans too. It’s right in the freakin’ name! ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-isis-is-islamic/737967/118 "2016-04-28T19:31:16Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Of course it is. It is the entire basis of their claim to the Khalifa. > > Since your understanding of the theology is so limited, it is not going to be successful as an argument. This is a very sterile effort. I don’t know. ITSM that if ISIS recruits could be led by propaganda into apostasy, they could be led back out with reasoning. I get it that ISIS members prefer Muhammad, but that doesn’t change what other prophets have said. They all speak for the same god yanno. Besides, this isn’t all about convincing ISIS members. I don’t think they are Muslims, and I don’t think other people should believe they are, either. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-isis-is-islamic/737967/119 "2016-04-28T19:56:13Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > I don’t know. ITSM that if ISIS recruits could be led by propaganda into apostasy, they could be led back out with reasoning. ?? This is nonsensical. ñañi has correctly noted the belief and the framing of the belief, your response has no logic to it. > [@](#): > > I get it that ISIS members prefer Muhammad, but that doesn’t change what other prophets have said. They all speak for the same god yanno. The Quran is held to override the incorrect records and the distorted records of the past. The actions and models of the Prophet also override these accounts considered untrustworthy. Your naive and badly informed argumentation is not in any way convincing to a Muslim, it is perhaps at best puzzling. > [@](#): > > Besides, this isn’t all about convincing ISIS members. I don’t think they are Muslims, and I don’t think other people should believe they are, either. \*\*You are not a Muslim and you have no say in this. \*\* You also display very bad reasoning and a strangely superficial understanding of the actual theology. This is silly and sterile, but if you want to engage in the empty posturing for yourself only, well we can not stop you evidently. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-isis-is-islamic/737967/120 "2016-04-28T22:25:51Z")
\*\* Try2B Comprehensive\*\*, are you familiar with the Dunning-Kruger Effect? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-isis-is-islamic/737967/121 "2016-04-29T00:19:01Z")
Let’s try something else… Does anyone have the same conclusion that **Try2B Comprehensive** came to (ISIS not Islamic) but has a different reasoning that got them there? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-isis-is-islamic/737967.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-isis-is-islamic/737967.md?page=7)