# I don't believe man has ventured beyond low earth orbit. Change my mind. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 5, 2018, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-man-has-ventured-beyond-low-earth-orbit-change-my-mind/819114 "2018-08-05T03:01:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-man-has-ventured-beyond-low-earth-orbit-change-my-mind/819114/21 "2018-08-05T03:55:17Z")
> [@Aquadementia](#): > > Hilarious. > You take one thing on blind faith and can’t be bothered to explain why but arbitrarily decide all this Moon stuff is bunk. > Reasonably, you would equally believe that all this radiation belt nonsense is a hoax also. > Maybe it’s to keep naive people trapped on Earth and escaping to the Moon. Consider that. I just gave you a conspiracy theory on top of a conspiracy theory. Your position is one of ignorance. I was hoping to interact with people capable of understanding radiation and it’s effects but you are convinced that because it was on TV then it must be real. If you can explain the radiation discrepancy then please do so otherwise peddle your crap elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-man-has-ventured-beyond-low-earth-orbit-change-my-mind/819114/22 "2018-08-05T03:56:16Z")
This is a well known conspiracy theory that has been comprehensively debunked. > **[Moon landing conspiracy theories | Environment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_landing_conspiracy_theories#Environment)** > > 1. The astronauts could not have survived the trip because of exposure to radiation from the Van Allen radiation belt and galactic ambient radiation (see radiation poisoning and health threat from cosmic rays). Some conspiracists have suggested that Starfish Prime (a high-altitude nuclear test in 1962) formed another intense layer on the Van Allen belt. > [@](#): > > There are two main Van Allen belts – the inner belt and the outer belt – and a transient third belt.[109] The inner belt is the more dangerous one, containing energetic protons. The outer one has less-dangerous low-energy electrons (Beta particles).[110][111] The Apollo spacecraft passed through the inner belt in a matter of minutes and the outer belt in about ​1 1⁄2 hours.[111] The astronauts were shielded from the ionizing radiation by the aluminum hulls of the spacecraft.[111][112] Furthermore, the orbital transfer trajectory from Earth to the Moon through the belts was chosen to lessen radiation exposure.[112] Even Dr. James Van Allen, the discoverer of the Van Allen radiation belts, rebutted the claims that radiation levels were too harmful for the Apollo missions.[113] Plait cited an average dose of less than 1 rem (10 mSv), which is equivalent to the ambient radiation received by living at sea level for three years.[114] The total radiation received on the trip was about the same as allowed for workers in the nuclear energy field for a year[111][115] and not much more than what Space Shuttle astronauts received.[110] All the above copiously referenced in the Wikipedia article. I recall a long tedious thread on here fairly recently where the poster repeated exactly the same hoax claim in a very similar terms. OP on that occasion kept stubbornly repeating this radiation figure, had no actual interest in facts or evidence. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-man-has-ventured-beyond-low-earth-orbit-change-my-mind/819114/23 "2018-08-05T03:56:33Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Why should we? You shouldn’t. It might require you to miss Fox News and further indoctrination. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-man-has-ventured-beyond-low-earth-orbit-change-my-mind/819114/24 "2018-08-05T03:58:03Z")
> [@Lord\_Foul](#): > > You shouldn’t. It might require you to miss Fox News and further indoctrination. LOL. You have no clue what I think about Fox “News”. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-man-has-ventured-beyond-low-earth-orbit-change-my-mind/819114/25 "2018-08-05T03:59:31Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > This is a well known hoax theory that has been comprehensively debunked. > > [Moon landing conspiracy theories - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_landing_conspiracy_theories#Environment) > > All the above copiously referenced in the Wikipedia article. > > I recall a long tedious thread on here fairly recently where the poster repeated exactly the same hoax claim in a very similar terms. OP on that occasion kept stubbornly repeating this radiation figure, had no actual interest in facts or evidence. I have a simple question for you. Can Aluminum shield Galactic cosmic radiation? Can Aluminum shield high energy proton radiation? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-man-has-ventured-beyond-low-earth-orbit-change-my-mind/819114/26 "2018-08-05T03:59:42Z")
> [@Lord\_Foul](#): > > There has been a half century of indoctrination and a concerted effort by the liars to perpetuate the lie. If a thing cannot be then it isn’t. Every shred of post Apollo data is proof that a lunar transit cannot be accomplished at the reported exposure levels. Either the reported levels are erroneous or they never left LEO. You pick the one that eases you cognitive dissonance. There’s also been a half century of evidence that man landed on the moon. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-man-has-ventured-beyond-low-earth-orbit-change-my-mind/819114/27 "2018-08-05T04:00:50Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > This is a well known conspiracy theory that has been comprehensively debunked. > > [Moon landing conspiracy theories - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_landing_conspiracy_theories#Environment) > > All the above copiously referenced in the Wikipedia article. > > I recall a long tedious thread on here fairly recently where the poster repeated exactly the same hoax claim in a very similar terms. OP on that occasion kept stubbornly repeating this radiation figure, had no actual interest in facts or evidence. I’ve been trying to find it. No luck. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-man-has-ventured-beyond-low-earth-orbit-change-my-mind/819114/28 "2018-08-05T04:01:11Z")
> [@Lord\_Foul](#): > > An examination of all mission through and beyond the VAB indicates exposure would be much higher. The Orion EFT in 2014, the Indian CHANDRAYAAN-1, and The MSL/RAD mission to mars all indicate the background radiation in space is to high for the Apollo mission doses to be realistic. Do they? Was this reported somewhere we could read it? ---
**Author:** ![chargerrich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chargerrich/32/5399_2.png) [@chargerrich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chargerrich)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-man-has-ventured-beyond-low-earth-orbit-change-my-mind/819114/29 "2018-08-05T04:02:05Z")
I am curious your motives to post here because you clearly have no desire to learn more or be convinced otherwise as you stated. I could tell you that the men of Apollo were generally exposed to less than 1 rad due to the trajectories used that bypassed the inner belts completely because the radiation levels are not constant and consistent and the more dense areas could be - and were - avoided. But any cite or information provided whether it is from NASA or Popular Science will be viewed as evil government propoganda and part of the coverup. So why are “asking” for any evidence when you have no desire to even consider it? Your mind is made up so just go on believing that over 1 million people - including the USSR - helped create and/or hide this grand illusion for one of the crazy hoaxer reasons or another. You clearly have only read - or considered - information that makes this ridiculous conspiracy true in your myopic view and that is your right, go post your flawed and delusional thoughts to the flat earth folks, they will eat it up and you will feel right at the home. Sane people are not your best audience. Cite: > **[Apollo Rocketed Through the Van Allen Belts](https://www.popsci.com/blog-network/vintage-space/apollo-rocketed-through-van-allen-belts/)** > > Contrary to popular belief, the Van Allen Radiation belts didn't spell doom for Apollo astronauts. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-man-has-ventured-beyond-low-earth-orbit-change-my-mind/819114/30 "2018-08-05T04:02:24Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > There’s also been a half century of evidence that man landed on the moon. There has been a half century of deception and indoctrination. It has been even longer since Kennedy was assassinated and yet the lies continue. Christianity is over two thousand years and it lives on. Go figure. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-man-has-ventured-beyond-low-earth-orbit-change-my-mind/819114/31 "2018-08-05T04:04:56Z")
It’s easy to prove you wrong. What’s tough is getting you conspiracy theorists to admit it, as you’ve bought into half-truths heart and soul and hate to admit it. But [here’s](https://www.forbes.com/sites/jillianscudder/2017/06/16/astroquizzical-van-allen-belts-barrier-spaceflight/) your answer: > [@](#): > > The problem with the Van Allen belts lies not in them being impassable, but in the charged particles they contain. > > Charged particles are damaging to human bodies, but the amount of damage done can range from none to lethal, depending on the energy those particles deposit, the density of those particles, and the length of time you spend being exposed to them. > > In the case of the Apollo missions, the solution was to minimize the second two factors. We can’t control the energy of those particles, though they can be large. The density of the Van Allen belts is well known (from sending uncrewed probes through them), and there are hotspots you can definitely avoid. In particular, the innermost belt is a rather tightly defined region, and it was possible to stay out of it for the trip to the Moon. The second belt is much larger, and harder to avoid, but there are still denser regions to avoid. For the Apollo trips, we wanted to send the astronauts through a sparse region of the belts, and to try and get through them quickly. This was necessary in any case; the crafts had to make it to the Moon in a reasonable amount of time, and the shorter the trip, the less exposure to all sorts of radiation the astronauts would get. > > In the end, it seemed that these tactics worked; the on-board dose counters for the Apollo missions registered average radiation doses to the skin of the astronauts of 0.38 rad. This is about the same radiation dose as getting two CT scans of your head, or half the dose of a single chest CT scan; not too bad, though not something you should do every week. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-man-has-ventured-beyond-low-earth-orbit-change-my-mind/819114/32 "2018-08-05T04:05:09Z")
> [@chargerrich](#): > > I am curious your motives to post here because you clearly have no desire to learn more or be convinced otherwise as you stated. > > I could tell you that the men of Apollo were generally exposed to less than 1 rad due to the trajectories used that bypassed the inner belts completely because the radiation levels are not constant and consistent and the more dense areas could be - and were - avoided. But any cite or information provided whether it is from NASA or Popular Science will be viewed as evil government propoganda and part of the coverup. > > So why are “asking” for any evidence when you have no desire to even consider it? Your mind is made up so just go on believing that over 1 million people - including the USSR - helped create and/or hide this grand illusion for one of the crazy hoaxer reasons or another > > Cite: > [Apollo Rocketed Through the Van Allen Belts | Popular Science](https://www.popsci.com/blog-network/vintage-space/apollo-rocketed-through-van-allen-belts#page-4) You are like the person who just saw a magic trick. You abandoned your belief in science and logic and accepted the trick as fact. If a thing cannot be then it isn’t. Using recent data show me that it can be done. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-man-has-ventured-beyond-low-earth-orbit-change-my-mind/819114/33 "2018-08-05T04:05:23Z")
> **[List of spaceflight-related accidents and incidents | Astronaut fatalities](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_spaceflight-related_accidents_and_incidents#Astronaut_fatalities)** > > As of March 2021\[update\], in-flight accidents have killed 15 astronauts and 4 cosmonauts, in five separate incidents. Three of them had flown above the Kármán line (edge of space), and one was intended to do so. In each case, the entire crew was killed. As a total of 642 people have flown into space under the USAF definition, and 19 of these have died, the current statistical fatality rate is 2.96 percent. > NASA astronauts who died on duty are memorialized at the Space Mirror Memorial at the Kenn... Strange thing to dump a few billion dollars a year into blowing up people in spectacular ways, for a few decades, if you don’t think you can keep them alive once you get them up there. You’re presupposing that a bunch of average aeronautic engineers and scientists are all so morally corrupt as to recruit these people and either refrain from telling them, “Best case, we disintegrate you in a giant fireball trying to get you up there. Worst case, we get you up there just to have you die in a few hours or minutes, just the same as if we stuck you in a giant microwave.” Or keep it a secret that, that’s the case. How exactly do you find a large body of people willing to do that? But more important, how much radiation are you supposing the Sun throws out? You can test radiation and shielding here on Earth. You can do it yourself, presumably, and arrive at a factual result. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-man-has-ventured-beyond-low-earth-orbit-change-my-mind/819114/34 "2018-08-05T04:07:05Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > It’s easy to prove you wrong. What’s tough is getting you conspiracy theorists to admit it, as you’ve bought into half-truths heart and soul and hate to admit it. But [here’s](https://www.forbes.com/sites/jillianscudder/2017/06/16/astroquizzical-van-allen-belts-barrier-spaceflight/) your answer: The problem with your logic is it can’t be repeated in the 21st century. Every probe, every mission into and beyond the VAB indicates a much higher exposure. Did something change? ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-man-has-ventured-beyond-low-earth-orbit-change-my-mind/819114/35 "2018-08-05T04:10:21Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > [List of spaceflight-related accidents and incidents - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_spaceflight-related_accidents_and_incidents#Astronaut_fatalities) > > Strange thing to dump a few billion dollars a year into blowing up people in spectacular ways, for a few decades, if you don’t think you can keep them alive once you get them up there. > > You’re presupposing that a bunch of average aeronautic engineers and scientists are all so morally corrupt as to recruit these people and either refrain from telling them, “Best case, we disintegrate you in a giant fireball trying to get you up there. Worst case, we get you up there just to have you die in a few hours or minutes, just the same as if we stuck you in a giant microwave.” Or keep it a secret that, that’s the case. > > How exactly do you find a large body of people willing to do that? > > But more important, how much radiation are you supposing the Sun throws out? You can test radiation and shielding here on Earth. You can do it yourself, presumably, and arrive at a factual result. You don’t have to find people willing to sacrifice their lives only their integrity. You don’t have to calculate radiation in space (Solar radiation is not the only space radiation), it has already been empirically determined. You only have to do the calculations. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-man-has-ventured-beyond-low-earth-orbit-change-my-mind/819114/36 "2018-08-05T04:14:17Z")
Interestingly, I came across [this (pdf) document](https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/tnD7080RadProtect.pdf) from 1973, the gist of which is that beyond-Earth radiation is not really a problem _unless_ there are solar flares, when it becomes a genuine though not automatically lethal hazard. The crew of Apollo 14 got the worst exposure and, perhaps not coincidentally, all three men are dead, though only one specifically of cancer. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-man-has-ventured-beyond-low-earth-orbit-change-my-mind/819114/37 "2018-08-05T04:18:08Z")
> [@Lord\_Foul](#): > > The problem with your logic is it can’t be repeated in the 21st century. Every probe, every mission into and beyond the VAB indicates a much higher exposure. Did something change? Well, the incidence of solar flares might be higher now than in 1969-1974. I don’t know why we’d assume the level of radiation must be constant. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-man-has-ventured-beyond-low-earth-orbit-change-my-mind/819114/38 "2018-08-05T04:19:22Z")
> [@Lord\_Foul](#): > > The problem with your logic is it can’t be repeated in the 21st century. Every probe, every mission into and beyond the VAB indicates a much higher exposure. Did something change? Which other missions or probes are you speaking of? Please be specific. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-man-has-ventured-beyond-low-earth-orbit-change-my-mind/819114/39 "2018-08-05T04:22:17Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > Which other missions or probes are you speaking of? Please be specific. He lists a few in post #20. Whether or not they support his conclusion remains to be seen. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-man-has-ventured-beyond-low-earth-orbit-change-my-mind/819114/40 "2018-08-05T04:28:21Z")
> [@Lord\_Foul](#): > > I believe no answer has been found to solve the radiation hazard space poses. I believe space travel beyond the Van Allen Belts is to risky to attempt. I believe the Apollo Missions were a hoax. Prove me wrong and change my mind. Impossible. Moon hoaxers don’t want to have their minds changed. They just want to be proven right. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-man-has-ventured-beyond-low-earth-orbit-change-my-mind/819114.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-man-has-ventured-beyond-low-earth-orbit-change-my-mind/819114.md?page=3)