# I don't believe man has ventured beyond low earth orbit. Change my mind. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 5, 2018, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-man-has-ventured-beyond-low-earth-orbit-change-my-mind/819114 "2018-08-05T03:01:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-man-has-ventured-beyond-low-earth-orbit-change-my-mind/819114/81 "2018-08-05T06:11:56Z")
> [@Lord\_Foul](#): > > Remember 1969 was the year of a Solar peak. Subsequent missions would have been exposed to higher GCR levels and all of them would have to have been lucky also. Also keep in mind this average you speak of is essentially a base line and does not include the VAB transit or the lunar surface and lunar orbit both which are higher than GCR. There is no way you can make the math work out. “Average” and “base line” are not synonyms and any argument assuming they are is fundamentally flawed. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-man-has-ventured-beyond-low-earth-orbit-change-my-mind/819114/82 "2018-08-05T06:13:35Z")
> [@Lord\_Foul](#): > > They lied and the evidence is before you. If you really think about it, you defend the lie not because you have personally verified the information rather you defend your indoctrination. You have been taught this your whole life and there is nothing that move you from your position. Even if NASA admitted the deception you would then become a conspiracy theorist. Yeah, let’s leave hypotheticals out of it and talk about the evidence alone, shall we? Yours seems based on an assumption that “average” and “base line” mean essentially the same thing. They don’t. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-man-has-ventured-beyond-low-earth-orbit-change-my-mind/819114/83 "2018-08-05T06:15:15Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > You might be surprised. > > Radiation is demonstrably provable, but **Mijin** specifically asked about radiation in space. Unless you’ve been there and taken your own readings, you’re accepting the word of some scientist who has studied it. Why do you accept their statements about the amount of radiation in space, but disregard their statements that the risk was managed and the moon landings took place? He has a lot to due with intelligence. I will believe anything that is logical and verifiable directly or indirectly. All information is second hand information. Even scientist rely on secondhand information. It is the evaluation of information that sets us apart. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-man-has-ventured-beyond-low-earth-orbit-change-my-mind/819114/84 "2018-08-05T06:15:28Z")
> [@Lord\_Foul](#): > > I might ask that question to a serial rapist or serial killer. I am sure that if you knew their motivations then their reasonings would be obvious also. You assume you know why they lied in the first place. **A** serial rapist or **A** serial killer is a single sick person, and I can’t know their motivations. But faking the moon landings would have required _thousands_ of people to cooperate,to invest a lot of hard work with a close group of co-workers andfriends,for a long time… and then every single one of them would have to keep silent about it for the next half century. Sure, you can hire a thousand actors, and pay them a lot of money to join in the hoax.That might work for a few years. But logic says that out of a thousand people, over a period of 50 years, somebody will change his mind and decide to share the truth with us. That person would become famous, and gain a _huge_ amount of fame and fortune. They’d have a _lot_ of motivation ( like your bank robber analogy). We should have heard a few confessions by now. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-man-has-ventured-beyond-low-earth-orbit-change-my-mind/819114/85 "2018-08-05T06:19:33Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Yeah, let’s leave hypotheticals out of it and talk about the evidence alone, shall we? > > Yours seems based on an assumption that “average” and “base line” mean essentially the same thing. They don’t. Average is essentially a measure of probability. Instantaneous measurements mean nothing because nothing we do is instantaneous. If you were to measure radiation over the period of exposure then it is the average you are measuring. Dosimetry measure an average. What is the point you want to make? ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-man-has-ventured-beyond-low-earth-orbit-change-my-mind/819114/86 "2018-08-05T06:21:26Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > **A** serial rapist or **A** serial killer is a single sick person, and I can’t know their motivations. > But faking the moon landings would have required _thousands_ of people to cooperate,to invest a lot of hard work with a close group of co-workers andfriends,for a long time… and then every single one of them would have to keep silent about it for the next half century. > Sure, you can hire a thousand actors, and pay them a lot of money to join in the hoax.That might work for a few years. > But logic says that out of a thousand people, over a period of 50 years, somebody will change his mind and decide to share the truth with us. That person would become famous, and gain a _huge_ amount of fame and fortune. They’d have a _lot_ of motivation ( like your bank robber analogy). > > We should have heard a few confessions by now. You only have to convince the unwilling. The gullible and the willing do not need convincing. On the contrary, they will fill in the blanks for you. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-man-has-ventured-beyond-low-earth-orbit-change-my-mind/819114/87 "2018-08-05T06:23:52Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > “Average” and “base line” are not synonyms and any argument assuming they are is fundamentally flawed. When I say baseline I am referring to the fact that GCR is present everyplace in the solar system except on earth and low earth orbit. Not that it is synonymous with average but in actuality it might as well be. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-man-has-ventured-beyond-low-earth-orbit-change-my-mind/819114/88 "2018-08-05T06:25:25Z")
> [@Lord\_Foul](#): > > Average is essentially a measure of probability. Instantaneous measurements mean nothing because nothing we do is instantaneous. If you were to measure radiation over the period of exposure then it is the average you are measuring. Dosimetry measure an average. What is the point you want to make? Your word salads are short a few croutons. Anyway, if I ever get a chance to meet Buzz Aldrin, I’ll thank him for his service on the moon and for punching Bart Sibrel. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-man-has-ventured-beyond-low-earth-orbit-change-my-mind/819114/89 "2018-08-05T06:29:22Z")
> [@Lord\_Foul](#): > > When I say baseline I am referring to the fact that GCR is present everyplace in the solar system except on earth and low earth orbit. Not that it is synonymous with average but in actuality it might as well be. No, in actuality, base line is _not_ synonymous with average, unless the level is constant everywhere and you have conceded that we have no reason to assume it is. Every argument you have stemming from assuming equivalence between “base line” and “average” is based on a flawed premise, so the conclusions you draw are suspect. You can slather on the verbiage all you want but until you address this critical flaw, you are flailing blindly. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-man-has-ventured-beyond-low-earth-orbit-change-my-mind/819114/90 "2018-08-05T06:32:02Z")
There is no evidence that GCR radiation has ever been lower than 1 mrem/hr in the last century. We are unable to shield GCR today and we have never been able to shield it. There is only two places in the solar system where it can be shielded, earth and low earth orbit. These are the facts. Do you dispute these facts? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-man-has-ventured-beyond-low-earth-orbit-change-my-mind/819114/91 "2018-08-05T06:39:19Z")
> [@Lord\_Foul](#): > > There is no evidence that GCR radiation has ever been lower than 1 mrem/hr in the last century. We are unable to shield GCR today and we have never been able to shield it. There is only two places in the solar system where it can be shielded, earth and low earth orbit. These are the facts. Do you dispute these facts? I question if they _are_ facts. In any case, let’s assume for the sake of argument that the astronauts were exposed to a consistent 1 mrem/hr over their entire lunar transit. Would this kill them? ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-man-has-ventured-beyond-low-earth-orbit-change-my-mind/819114/92 "2018-08-05T06:43:03Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I question if they _are_ facts. In any case, let’s assume for the sake of argument that the astronauts were exposed to a consistent 1 mrem/hr over their entire lunar transit. Would this kill them? No, it would not kill them. That is not the point. The point is it is the lowest radiation they are exposed to. Lunar orbit, the lunar surface and the VAB are all higher radiation areas. It is not possible to transit to the moon and receive less radiation than background GCR. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-man-has-ventured-beyond-low-earth-orbit-change-my-mind/819114/93 "2018-08-05T06:48:23Z")
> [@Lord\_Foul](#): > > No, it would not kill them. That is not the point. The point is it is the lowest radiation they are exposed to. Lunar orbit, the lunar surface and the VAB are all higher radiation areas. Your cite says otherwise. > [@](#): > > It is not possible to transit to the moon and receive less radiation than background GCR. I lack confidence you have done the math correctly to demonstrate that this is the case. Show your work. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-man-has-ventured-beyond-low-earth-orbit-change-my-mind/819114/94 "2018-08-05T06:53:23Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Your cite says otherwise. > > I lack confidence you have done the math correctly to demonstrate that this is the case. Show your work. I have shown you that GCR radiation in cislunar space is 1 mrem/hr. which is 24 mgy/day and I have shown you that Apollo 11 mission dosage was ,22 mgy/day. What confuses you about simple math? ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-man-has-ventured-beyond-low-earth-orbit-change-my-mind/819114/95 "2018-08-05T07:02:16Z")
The Indian CHANDRAYAAN-1 launched in October of 2008 placed a satellite in orbit around the moon and measured orbital radiation. We can compare the data to the CraTer Satellite data currently in orbit around the moon since 2009. Based on these two independent sources we can deduce that background radiation levels in cislunar space and on the surface of the moon are much to high to support the data from the Apollo missions. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-man-has-ventured-beyond-low-earth-orbit-change-my-mind/819114/96 "2018-08-05T08:08:10Z")
> [@Lord\_Foul](#): > > I have shown you that GCR radiation in cislunar space is 1 mrem/hr. which is 24 mgy/day and I have shown you that Apollo 11 mission dosage was ,22 mgy/day. What confuses you about simple math? If I could demonstrate a flaw in your reasoning, would you admit the landings are real? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-man-has-ventured-beyond-low-earth-orbit-change-my-mind/819114/97 "2018-08-05T08:25:51Z")
> [@Lord\_Foul](#): > > You can’t have everything. It can’t be almost true. No amount of evidence can override the truth. The truth of the matter is they are incapable of doing in the 21st century that which they succeeded on the first attempt 50 years earlier. Why do you think Obama shifted the goal post from the Moon to Mars? Your grammar is off. Let me fix it: “You can’t have everything. It can’t be almost True. No amount of evidence can override The Truth. The Truth of the matter is they are incapable of doing in the 21st century that which they succeeded on the first attempt 50 years earlier.” ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-man-has-ventured-beyond-low-earth-orbit-change-my-mind/819114/98 "2018-08-05T08:47:06Z")
I mentioned in another thread recently that those purveyors of scientific insight “Mitchell and Webb” had something for every occaision. So it proves [Moon Landing Conspiracy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6MOnehCOUw&t=1s) ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-man-has-ventured-beyond-low-earth-orbit-change-my-mind/819114/99 "2018-08-05T09:06:49Z")
> [@Lord\_Foul](#): > > I believe no answer has been found to solve the radiation hazard space poses. I believe space travel beyond the Van Allen Belts is to risky to attempt. I believe the Apollo Missions were a hoax. Prove me wrong and change my mind. I’m way ahead of you on this. You mistakenly admit further on that astronauts have gone into LEO (low earth orbit), but never to the moon. You must surely realize that astronauts have never gone into LEO, either. Rockets can’t work in a vacuum because there’s nothing for the engines to push against. You would realize this if you applied exactly the same scientific rigor that you applied to all your other reasoning. The ISS is obviously a hoax. Anyway, assuming we could somehow invent rockets that really work in outer space, and overcome God’s will that man never leave the flat earth that He created for us 6000 years ago, the [NASA Technical Note on Apollo radiation exposure](https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/tnD7080RadProtect.pdf) that was already cited documents the dosimentry readings on Apollo missions 7 through 15. For comparison, a CT chest X-ray is about 0.7 rad (7 mGy) (other levels are much higher – a PET/CT scan can be 2.5 rad or more - 25 mGy). All the missions recorded skin doses much less than a typical chest X-ray except Apollo 14, which was about half-way between chest X-ray and a PET scan. The Van Allen belts have a specific topology and highly variable density through the different regions, and the Apollo craft transited that area in a few hours. The moon is not “radioactive”, except to the extent that shielding is needed in proportion to the duration of lengthy exposures to GCR and SPEs. [From this paper](http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2012P%26SS...74...78R), “the _ **annual** _ exposure caused by GCR on the lunar surface is roughly 380 mSv (solar minimum) and 110 mSv (solar maximum). The analysis of worst case scenarios has indicated that SPE may lead to an exposure of about 1 Sv.” That’s _ **annual** _. Astronauts were only there for a few days. [This paper](https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/swe.20034) describes the different particle energy ranges. But as I said, this is all irrelevant because rockets don’t work in space anyway. Cite: my belief. Just like yours, only better. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2018, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-man-has-ventured-beyond-low-earth-orbit-change-my-mind/819114/100 "2018-08-05T10:21:32Z")
> [@Lord\_Foul](#): > > You can’t have everything. It can’t be almost true. No amount of evidence can override the truth. In fact, the truth is overridden by evidence all the time. Evidence overriding what yesterday was thought to be the truth, is the whole aim of science. When reproducible evidence is presented that goes against the truth, then the truth has changed. Truth that goes against the evidence has a special name - it’s called error. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-man-has-ventured-beyond-low-earth-orbit-change-my-mind/819114.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-believe-man-has-ventured-beyond-low-earth-orbit-change-my-mind/819114.md?page=6)