I don't buy "organic," because there's no nutritional difference

[Melbourne]

@Bricker

Whole Foods may disagree, along with the flock of progressively liberal Whole Foods customers that are willing to pay premium prices for “organic” food, but I contend this is the functional equivalent of homeopathy.

I take it that you are asserting that customers buy “organic” food for health benefits. This is not my assesment of my friends: clearly the people you know may be different.

Several of my vegetarian friends require ritual purity in their food. They express this in different ways, but it is clear that their desire for ritual purity transcends their belief about the ‘nutritional’ value of the food.

I haven’t seen any suggestion that homeopathists aim to achieve ritual purity in their preperations.

[Jackmannii]

We need companion threads to this one in the spirit of the OP.

“I don’t own a gun because target shooting is boring”
“I never bought a cellphone because I have an alarm watch”
“I don’t eat out because there are lots of choices in the frozen food aisle”

And yes, being an “heirloom” does not guarantee good taste. Modern hybrids aimed at the home grower market are in my experience as flavorful as most of the old-timers.

[Labrador_Deceiver]

@pulykamell

The heirlooms I’ve grown actually have sucked. Low yield, little difference in taste. Bleh. The biggest difference for me is not the organic vs non-organic crap, either. It’s been in-season tomatoes grown locally and (relatively) naturally (that is, at their own pace, and picked at an appropriate time.) And the right varietals, too. When it’s a good tomato, you just wanna slice it up and eat it between a couple slices of toasted breaded (with some mayo, for me.) Or just on its own.

Hell, I can certainly agree about low yield. I may abandon the Cherokee Purples in the garden this year for that reason, even though I love the taste of those tomatoes.

[Cicero]

I would buy an organic chicken before a supermarket brand simply because I have found them to be far fleshier- mind you, I pay significantly more for it.

With organic beef, I do find it is a lot “gamier” and not as tender; probably as you’d expect.

I will grow my own garlic, herbs etc but hardly enough to feed a family of two.

Nutritional value? No idea.

[Bricker]

@Melbourne

I take it that you are asserting that customers buy “organic” food for health benefits. This is not my assesment of my friends: clearly the people you know may be different.

Several of my vegetarian friends require ritual purity in their food. They express this in different ways, but it is clear that their desire for ritual purity transcends their belief about the ‘nutritional’ value of the food.

I haven’t seen any suggestion that homeopathists aim to achieve ritual purity in their preperations.

What is “ritual purity?”

[Nava]

@Jackmannii

Some of the best-tasting tomatoes “look funny” (have ridges or funny colors, or tend to have cosmetically off-putting defects) and are less likely to sell.

To wit, el feo de Tudela (Tudela uglies), one of my local heirloom veggies. Tasty? Hell yeah. Pretty? Hell no. Organic? Nnnooo… Raised in the open air and picked when it’s in season? Yep! The important points are the last one and the “selected for taste, not looks” part.

[Melbourne]

@Bricker

What is “ritual purity?”

Judging only by the ones I’ve spoken with, Orthodox Jews don’t buy their food from Kosher shops for the “nutritional benefits”.

[Try2B_Comprehensive]

Someone ought to point out that the attitude expressed in the OP is un-Christian. I would appreciate it if Bricker would stay in character.

One of my motives for making more money was to shop at Whole Foods. Some are better than others- the one in my smallish city is great. Most of the food appears more appetizing than at the local grocery stores. Things like bok choy, spinach, garlic, shallots, ginger, potatoes, carrots, onions- all of it seems to me more attractive at the Whole Foods.

I worry about energy and pollution issues. The local Whole Foods is clear about what is locally sourced. If it takes less fuel to get it to the table, that is usually a good thing, no?

Some things I can’t get anywhere else. If you have never tried the hydroponic butter lettuce, try it, it is really delicious. I have never seen that in the grocery stores, though the presence of Whole Foods does seem to have made them compete more. For example, the grocery stores suddenly have tons of cheese selections, and their own organic sections. They offer some local stuff too, but it never seems to be comparable in volume.

Whole Foods didn’t offer products with hydrogenated oils before those were banned- I appreciated that. Their products are not GMO free, but the staff say they are working on it by 2017 or something. Let’s see- the staff tends to be more knowledgeable at Whole Foods, though the grocery store isn’t staffed by idiots IMHO. The sourcing of the seafood is way more clear at Whole Foods, and all those items seem way more appetizing to me. Same with the Whole Foods deli, and their salad bar, and certain unique pastry things.

But I have the money. If I were broke or lived in the country I would manage without Whole Foods. I still eat cheap- my kielbasa stew lasts all week. I buy my cabbage and everything else for that at Safeway. While I’m there, I’ll spend $$$ on Gatorade and Doritos, both of which Whole Foods really ought to consider carrying.

[Measure_for_Measure]

Ok, here’s my personal scorecard. YMMV.

More nutritious? Antioxidants notwithstanding, no. And Americans don’t have vitamin deficiency problems overall. They have weight, fat and sugar problems. Score organic 0, non-organic 1.

Tastier? No good overall evidence, per se. 0-2.

Less pesticides in the environment? Yes. But this is far from the largest environmental problem we face. 0-3.

Less pesticide exposure for farm workers? Yes. And experts seem to care more about this than civilians. (Also, lower yields are definitely better for farm workers.) 1-3.

Lower yields. 1-4

The real argument I think involves co-factors. Locally sourced produce can be fresher and is at times organic. Stores that sell organic foods often have a better variety of fresher foods. So while I shop at Corporate Foodland, I also go to the Farmer’s Market, as well as a locally owned grocery store with good produce. 2-4.

Whole Foods is a mixed bag: something about them gives me the creeps, not least of all their promotion of woo. 2-5.
Also I wonder whether buying organic raspberries would be a good idea. Some say you are not suppose to wash them, because they don’t handle it well. There might be specific cases where organic makes sense, and visa-versa.
ETA:

@Nava

The important points are the last one and the “selected for taste, not looks” part.

+1

[Bone]

@Try2B_Comprehensive

But I have the money. If I were broke or lived in the country I would manage without Whole Foods. I still eat cheap- my kielbasa stew lasts all week. I buy my cabbage and everything else for that at Safeway. While I’m there, I’ll spend $$$ on Gatorade and Doritos, both of which Whole Foods really ought to consider carrying.

Whole Foods won’t carry Gatorade and Doritos since they have high fructose corn syrup. Just like they wont carry common soda for similar reasons. There is a list of ingredients that if present they won’t carry that product. It’s a certain peace of mind that you know these things aren’t present without having to examine every label - if that’s important to you.

[bump]

@Bone

Whole Foods won’t carry Gatorade and Doritos since they have high fructose corn syrup. Just like they wont carry common soda for similar reasons. There is a list of ingredients that if present they won’t carry that product. It’s a certain peace of mind that you know these things aren’t present without having to examine every label - if that’s important to you.

You keep telling yourself that; I suspect it’s because Gatorade and Doritos are made by huge food conglomerates and are counter to their particular image in terms of the products they sell.

I suspect that their list of unacceptable ingredients is a convenient way to filter those products, in that only the big mass-manufacturers are going to have the wherewithal to use those ingredients.

[Bone]

@bump

You keep telling yourself that; I suspect it’s because Gatorade and Doritos are made by huge food conglomerates and are counter to their particular image in terms of the products they sell.

I suspect that their list of unacceptable ingredients is a convenient way to filter those products, in that only the big mass-manufacturers are going to have the wherewithal to use those ingredients.

So if they carried products made by huge food conglomerates (define please?) that would run counter to your suspicion, right?

In any event, I don’t particularly care if they have hidden motives - the fact of the matter is they won’t carry products that contain certain ingredients. I consider that a positive. I do consume foods that contain those ingredients sometimes - and for those I shop somewhere else.

[Jackmannii]

@Bone

Whole Foods won’t carry Gatorade and Doritos since they have high fructose corn syrup. Just like they wont carry common soda for similar reasons. There is a list of ingredients that if present they won’t carry that product. It’s a certain peace of mind that you know these things aren’t present without having to examine every label - if that’s important to you.

Whole Foods also offers customers the peace of mind that goes with purchasing their worthless homeopathic drugs.

I wonder if the people who shop at Whole Foods in part to stick it to giant corporations like Monsanto, realize that Whole Foods does almost as much in annual sales as Monsanto (something like $13 billion as opposed to Monsanto’s $15 billion). There’s an awful lot of money in promoting the idea that you’re selling healthier products to people, even when you aren’t.

[Bone]

@Jackmannii

Whole Foods also offers customers the peace of mind that goes with purchasing their worthless homeopathic drugs.

I wonder if the people who shop at Whole Foods in part to stick it to giant corporations like Monsanto, realize that Whole Foods does almost as much in annual sales as Monsanto (something like $13 billion as opposed to Monsanto’s $15 billion). There’s an awful lot of money in promoting the idea that you’re selling healthier products to people, even when you aren’t.

While I think that homepathy is a bunch of bullshit, Whole Foods is not unique in their selling of these types of products. You can find them at Safeway or Kroegers or other major supermarkets. I like the store personally, but that doesn’t mean that I like every product. The fact that they sell homeopathic items just like other stores doesn’t take away from the fact that their wages are great, their level of service is excellent, they provide free samples of everything in the store, and give my kids snacks while I shop.

I have no problem with Monsanto either.

[Peremensoe]

@Bone

@bump

You keep telling yourself that; I suspect it’s because Gatorade and Doritos are made by huge food conglomerates and are counter to their particular image in terms of the products they sell.

I suspect that their list of unacceptable ingredients is a convenient way to filter those products, in that only the big mass-manufacturers are going to have the wherewithal to use those ingredients.

So if they carried products made by huge food conglomerates (define please?) that would run counter to your suspicion, right?

I think we can safely describe PepsiCo as a huge food conglomerate. They own both the Gatorade and Doritos brands… and a slew of labels that Whole Foods carries, such as Stacy’s Pita Chips, Mother’s Natural cereals, and Izze juice drinks.

[bump]

@Bone

So if they carried products made by huge food conglomerates (define please?) that would run counter to your suspicion, right?

In any event, I don’t particularly care if they have hidden motives - the fact of the matter is they won’t carry products that contain certain ingredients. I consider that a positive. I do consume foods that contain those ingredients sometimes - and for those I shop somewhere else.

My point was that their list of unacceptable ingredients seems less like a way for them to watch out for their customers, and more like a way to ensure that they keep shelf-space for their store brand stuff and their artisanal producers. The point being that their whole business model is centered around having unique-ish stuff for which they can charge top dollar.

Selling something like Doritos doesn’t fit that- they can’t charge much more than the going rate for Doritos in the nearby grocery stores, and basically give up that shelf space that could be more profitably used for some sort of artisanal chips or even store-brand chips that they can price up to where they want to sell them at.

There’s nothing in it for them to sell Doritos; but they don’t want to come across as so ruthlessly corporate, because it sort of runs counter to all their woo and happy, crunchy, “healthy” propaganda. So the easy way to get out of it is to say they don’t sell anything with these ingredients, and relatively conveniently pick things like “solvent-refined oils” and “disodium guanylate” which aren’t harmful, but aren’t used in mass-market foods either.

[Bone]

@bump

My point was that their list of unacceptable ingredients seems less like a way for them to watch out for their customers, and more like a way to ensure that they keep shelf-space for their store brand stuff and their artisanal producers. The point being that their whole business model is centered around having unique-ish stuff for which they can charge top dollar.

I think their business model is more than that, but making a high profit is certainly part of it.

Peremenose beat me to it, but WF does carry products by the huge conglomerate Pepsico that owns Doritos and Gatorade. I don’t think it’s accurate to say they are filtering the manufactures of those products, rather the products themselves.

Look attheir core values:

[ul]
[li]Selling the highest quality natural and organic products available[/li][li]Satisfying, delighting and nourishing our customers[/li][li]Supporting Team Member happiness and excellence[/li][li]Creating wealth through profits and growth[/li][li]Serving and supporting our local and global communities[/li][li]Practicing and advancing our environmental stewardship[/li][li]Creating ongoing win-win partnerships with our suppliers[/li][li]Promoting the health of our stakeholders through healthy eating education[/li][/ul]

Wealth through profits and growth is the fourth bullet. Of course they are in it to make money. I know my local whole foods regional office has supported local growers, giving money/ low interest loans so that new suppliers can get off the ground. That’s stewardship.

[Jackmannii]

@Bone

While I think that homepathy is a bunch of bullshit, Whole Foods is not unique in their selling of these types of products. You can find them at Safeway or Kroegers or other major supermarkets. I like the store personally, but that doesn’t mean that I like every product. The fact that they sell homeopathic items just like other stores

What other supermarkets sell their own line of homeopathic drugs while touting them for various conditions? Do Safeway and Kroger operate websites promoting homeopathy? Do these companies make a big selling point (like Whole Foods) of carefully evaluating every product they sell?

Not that its competitors should be off the hook for selling useless woo, but it strikes me that Whole Foods bears greater culpability.

[Try2B_Comprehensive]

@Bone

Whole Foods won’t carry Gatorade and Doritos since they have high fructose corn syrup. Just like they wont carry common soda for similar reasons. There is a list of ingredients that if present they won’t carry that product. It’s a certain peace of mind that you know these things aren’t present without having to examine every label - if that’s important to you.

I do appreciate the lack of high-fructose corn syrup. I have the money to choose high-quality ingredients, so I don’t have to suck on the Midwest’s processed-corn-sugar-filled teat if I’d rather not. I suspect the definition of ‘nutritious’ can be wiggled in such a way that the absence of this doesn’t matter. Still the same amount of Vitamin A! Exactly. the. same! &etc.

I’ll spend extra to get black beans or what-have-you in the BHA free cans, or in the paper boxes. There are a handful of things on WF’s ban list that I’m worried about. Most of it I am ignorant about.

To respond to both of you, I don’t think the point is that the food is better for you in every case- sometimes a given process is bad for rivers, say, or results in toxic wastes that don’t need to be generated. I can dig it that the Koch brothers don’t give a shit about those sorts of things, but ordinary people often do.

Anyway, sometimes the fervor of my wild-eyed liberalism abates for a while and Doritos and Gatorade seem like a good idea. I’ve been pretty good about replacing soda with La Croix, getting more greens and high-quality ingredients in general (which aren’t utterly absent at the other grocery stores). I know I should eat tortillas with guac and drink Hammer’s HEED if I need some electrolytes instead of resorting to junk food, but what can I say? Some crap I find tasty.

Which brings us to the real reason I like Whole Foods- walking through the store, I want to eat almost all of it. Some of it looks eye-poppingly delicious (and if I take it home, usually it is!). The grocery stores have appetizing stuff, but also far more meh stuff.

I don’t do homeopathy. I do like yoga though, so there ya go.

ETA: Speaking of nutrition, WF used to post ANDI scores of various foods. They really didn’t make a distinction between organic or not, just that these foods have such and such an ANDI score. It could sort of nudge you toward more nutritious choices… if there is any merit to the ANDI system, that is.

[Dangerosa]

@Jackmannii

Whole Foods also offers customers the peace of mind that goes with purchasing their worthless homeopathic drugs.

I wonder if the people who shop at Whole Foods in part to stick it to giant corporations like Monsanto, realize that Whole Foods does almost as much in annual sales as Monsanto (something like $13 billion as opposed to Monsanto’s $15 billion). There’s an awful lot of money in promoting the idea that you’re selling healthier products to people, even when you aren’t.

Whole Foods is an EVIL corporation. I did one of my b-school case studies on them and it convinced me that they have the ethics of a street pimp. Or, at least the CEO does. The don’t carry Doritos because they can’t bully Frito Lay around the way they can Annie’s. By carrying small producers they have a lot more leverage.

When I go for my crunchy granola feel good shopping, I skip the big faceless corporation that wants to kill off small natural foods retailers and shop at the Farmers Market or Coop.