# I Don't Get and Am Sick of Trans-Stuff **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2016, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519 "2016-08-12T02:10:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Taber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac91a4/32.png) [@Taber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taber)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/262 "2016-08-18T23:03:19Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > BigT: > > They wouldn’t. But they would use “normal” to describe what is now called “cisgender” and “transgender” to describe one who is transgender. Of course, the _implication_ of calling one group “normal” is to label the other group “abnormal”, but they wouldn’t use that word specifically. They’d say, “This person is a normal woman” and “This person is a transgender woman” without meaning to be insulting. Normal is terribly nonspecific. If you say you are normal, do you mean you are a 16-59year old, right handed, neurotypical, cisgender, ethnically Chinese, in the most common earning bracket, heterosexual Chinese male? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/263 "2016-08-18T23:22:49Z")
“This is Sue. She’s a normal woman. This is Beth. She’s Jewish.” You’re saying you would be bothered by that, **cm**? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/264 "2016-08-18T23:52:00Z")
Just curious – what is the origin of “cis”? Was it just made up, or was there related meaning or whatever? (At this point, all the arguing over the term is getting really stupid. Yeah, it’s an odd sounding word, but it’s not insulting or anything like that) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/265 "2016-08-19T00:13:43Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Just curious – what is the origin of “cis”? Was it just made up, or was there related meaning or whatever? Latin. “Trans” means, roughly, “other side of.” “Cis” means “this side of.” “Gallia Cisalpina” was a Roman province, as contrasted with “Gallia Transalpina,” which was on the other side of the Alps. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/266 "2016-08-19T00:14:51Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Obviously, you can call anyone anything. But isn’t it reasonable to say that a person whose body and brain are in harmony, who needs no sort of therapy or surgery to achieve such a state, is “normal” and one who requires medical intervention is not? Should we apply similar reasoning to people who choose to be circumcised? I don’t want to pick on you for your religion, but this seems like a pretty apt comparison. Unless you’re comfortable calling circumcised men “abnormal,” you might want to look at how folks find it stigmatizing to be labeled with that word. I mean, one step further: there are parents (including mine, TMI) who decided to circumcise their babies. Are you saying they’re choosing a life of abnormality for their children? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/267 "2016-08-19T00:48:07Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So you don’t think it’s necessary to have a word for straight, or heterosexual? > > I find those words quite useful. I don’t, not really. When is it REQUIRED to use them? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/268 "2016-08-19T00:50:41Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Sidebar: some terms are only offensive depending upon the geographic location. Having just returned from my second trip to Thailand, where I dealt with or encountered kathoey working at an engineering firm, in a shopping mall, and in the streets and sex clubs, “ladyboy” in Thailand, does not appear to be offensive in any context I have encountered. > > This is actually rather difficult for me to accommodate myself to, because IME in the US it almost always is very offensive. So I still refused to use the word, and preferred to use the Thai “kathoey” instead. Which of course translates from Thai into “ladyboy,” so I’m not really making it better for anyone but myself. :smack: Well, maybe you can explain how a word is only offensive depending on where you are in the world? And also, maybe you can explain how the word “ladyboy” is offensive at all? I mean, what is the proof? According to **Miller** , it’s INHERENTLY offensive. How can it be INHERENTLY offensive if there exists places in the world where there is no controversy over whether or not it is offensive? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/269 "2016-08-19T00:57:47Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > In my long years of participating in these sorts of debates, online and increasingly IRL, I find that 100% of the time those who plant their feet against the word “cisgender” are in fact not supportive of either transgender persons as individuals or the community as a whole. > > Given the diversity of humanity, there will be \*some \*cases where a person who fights the good fight to abolish the word “cisgender” is also an ally who helps, works with, is friendly to, or otherwise materially or substantively supportive to transgender persons. In other words, a person who is honestly bothered by the systemic and systematic discrimination we face, about our abominable unemployment and underemployment rates, lack of access to health care for transition, scarily high depression and suicide rate among unsupported individuals, and the violence, sexual assault, and murder of us. > > I suppose it’s possible. Maybe you can define what you mean by ‘supportive’? I don’t help, work with, or am materially or substantively supportive to transgender persons. I don’t know any. I wouldn’t say I am supportive beyond the fact that I don’t care if someone is transgender or not. If I was at work, and someone came to me and said “Hey, I’m transgender” I would say the same thing I would say to someone who told me they were gay, or Christian, or Athiest or Muslim or married or a single parent - “I don’t care, good for you.” The use of the word “cisgender” to describe myself has absolutely nothing to do with transgender people at all. As a result, any “fighting of the good fight” has nothing to do with transgender people, and everything to do with labeling myself with words that others say I should label myself with. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/270 "2016-08-19T01:03:28Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Plus it’s just inevitable. If a difference is observed, there will be a term made both for the less common and the more common variation, if one does not exist. What do you call someone who DOESN’T have diabetes? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/271 "2016-08-19T01:05:59Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Latin. “Trans” means, roughly, “other side of.” “Cis” means “this side of.” “Gallia Cisalpina” was a Roman province, as contrasted with “Gallia Transalpina,” which was on the other side of the Alps. Is the contrast to a “transnational” corporation a “cisnational” corporation? Is the contrast to a “transverse” wave a “cisverse” wave? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/272 "2016-08-19T01:08:56Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Perhaps, but I think it is the reason that a lot of cisgendered folks don’t like the “cisgender” label, even those who have no animus against the transgendered. How about you? Is this a “some people are saying” sort of conversation? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/273 "2016-08-19T01:56:18Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > What you’re not saying again is that your position here is that some dark cabal within the transgender community invented the word “cisgender” as a slur, which truth is borne out by the fact that “non-trans” would connote exactly the same meaning, only absent the hateful overtones. > > Your argument has not been that transgender and cisgender are diametrically opposed in a meaningful way. It has been that cisgender is entirely unnecessary, except as a slur. > > And yet each of your cites – let’s use the Wikipedia this time – makes some additional qualification along the lines of: > > > [@](#): > > > > People who are neither transgender nor genderqueer — people whose sense of personal identity corresponds to the sex and gender assigned to them at birth — are termed cisgender. > > Which means that it is patently obvious that cisgender is a word that connotes an additional meaning beyond “non-transgender,” whether or not the binary construction is sufficient in some cases. > > Do you want to know why this is a stupid conversation, and you’re wasting everyone’s time, and we’re all stupid for letting you? You aren’t even really contradicting the above. You’re tacitly acknowledging that yes, certainly there are definitions that real people use of “cisgender” and “transgender” that make “cisgender” a functionally significant word as compared to “not transgender.” And as long as that’s true, everything else you’re saying is a waste of everyone’s time. You’re not arguing for economy of language. You’re making a claim to a conspiracy of hatred that requires something to be true that you can’t even assert is true. So let’s see, you state [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19550102&postcount=60) as absolute fact that “Non-transgender and cisgender aren’t even the same thing”. And I’ve just finished showing you that in many commonly accepted and authoritatively supported usages of those words, they are _ **exactly** _ the same thing. You have asserted as indisputable fact something that you have failed to support and that is, at best, a controversially narrow interpretation of the terms. You have an interesting way of saying “I guess I was wrong”. But you’re welcome anyway. Glad to help. What is astonishing here is your persistent denial of clear facts. [#182](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19557787&postcount=182) establishes that (a) according to multiple sources including several explanatory articles and dictionaries, “cisgender” and “transgender” are mutually exclusive complementary opposites, (b) that “cisgender” refers to the normative condition defined in the Oxford and other dictionaries and that transgender is anything that is _ **NOT** _ that, and (c) this complementary opposition is further supported by cites from the literature that “transgender” can function as an umbrella term for many other gender conditions such as genderqueer. Which specifically answered LHoD’s question, and which is important inasmuch as LHoD, you, and others seemed to believe that “cisgender” and “transgender” don’t denote mutually exclusive binary conditions in authoritative interpretations of those terms. But they do. You provided what you regard as a “qualification” of that in the Wikipedia article. You seem not to understand what that word means, either. No, the quote you provided doesn’t “qualify” anything, it _ **directly contradicts** _ my quote from the introduction, and it contradicts the entire section titled _[Other Categories](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender#Other_categories)_ in that same Wikipedia article which supports my stated position. And the cite for your contradictory quote leads to a dead link. [Here is the correct link](http://public.oed.com/the-oed-today/recent-updates-to-the-oed/previous-updates/june-2015-update/new-words-notes-june-2015/), and it makes no such statement. But even if there was a source for this, a reasonable person might conclude that there is disagreement in the literature about the words in question, so one has to weigh the relative authoritativeness and thoroughness of the sources, and both the online Oxford dictionary and my cited source for “transgender” as an umbrella term in my opinion offer authoritative support for the view I have advanced. Some might consider the exercise an interesting exploration of both linguistics and social change. You, however, mainly seem interested in asserting your infallible correctness despite a paucity of evidence, and turning this into a discussion about the immense value of your time. That’s a conversation you can have with yourself as it holds no interest for me. And BTW, I don’t believe “dark cabal” ever entered into my description of anything. I have no vested interest on either side of this issue, other than a shared abhorrence of the human rights violations against the LGBT community that still occur in many places, but I was curious about the origin of the word “cisgender” and the rationale for it. As I said earlier, language can serve cultural and political purposes, and sometimes it does so to beneficial effect, sometimes not. As already noted, some competent researchers feel the word is unnecessary and promotes the perception of a divisive gender binary; others may disagree. My dislike of the word is not a slam against the LGBT community but a reflection of the fact that sociopolitical movements often spawn fanatical advocates whose zealotry may do more harm than good. That last part is just my opinion and you are certainly free to disagree, but at least now we have a better understanding of what these words mean. I think any further discussion with you would be futile. Thank you for your time as I understand from your previous missive that it’s extremely valuable, and I hope not to trespass on it further with cites from the dictionary or quotations from gender studies researchers. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/274 "2016-08-19T02:03:49Z")
Qualification is to make less absolute. For example, I could qualify the statement “ **manson** has made the dumbest post to this thread recently,” by saying “oh, **wolfpup** is here.” ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/275 "2016-08-19T02:07:29Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Qualification is to make less absolute. > > For example, I could qualify the statement “ **manson** has made the dumbest post to this thread recently,” by saying “oh, **wolfpup** is here.” Please use my whole username when trying to insult me so I can find it in a Google search. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/276 "2016-08-19T02:09:30Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Maybe you can define what you mean by ‘supportive’? > > I don’t help, work with, or am materially or substantively supportive to transgender persons. I don’t know any. I wouldn’t say I am supportive beyond the fact that I don’t care if someone is transgender or not. If I was at work, and someone came to me and said “Hey, I’m transgender” I would say the same thing I would say to someone who told me they were gay, or Christian, or Athiest or Muslim or married or a single parent - “I don’t care, good for you.” The use of the word “cisgender” to describe myself has absolutely nothing to do with transgender people at all. As a result, any “fighting of the good fight” has nothing to do with transgender people, and everything to do with labeling myself with words that others say I should label myself with. I don’t think anyone is saying you should label yourself cisgender, it’s just a term that is useful in certain contexts to avoid being rude or possibly offensive. Trans people go through a lot of emotional and mental anguish related to their gender identity, and certain sentences could, in their company, be rude/insulting. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/277 "2016-08-19T02:16:07Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I don’t think anyone is saying you should label yourself cisgender, it’s just a term that is useful in certain contexts to avoid being rude or possibly offensive. > > Trans people go through a lot of emotional and mental anguish related to their gender identity, and certain sentences could, in their company, be rude/insulting. What are those contexts? How can you be rude or possibly offensive by NOT labeling somebody? I understand that transgender people go through a lot of emotional and mental anguish related to their gender identity. I just don’t see how using terms like “cisgender” abate that anguish or emotional harm. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/278 "2016-08-19T02:25:22Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Well, maybe you can explain how a word is only offensive depending on where you are in the world? The term “Paki” is very offensive in the UK, and not really considered offensive in the US. Culture can determine whether words are offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/279 "2016-08-19T02:27:53Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > The term “Paki” is very offensive in the UK, and not really considered offensive in the US. Culture can determine whether words are offensive. You don’t think so? Try calling someone a “Paki” on this message board and see where it gets you. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/280 "2016-08-19T02:32:50Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Well, maybe you can explain how a word is only offensive depending on where you are in the world? I don’t know. It simply is. I’ve been there and personally been in their society now. > [@](#): > > And also, maybe you can explain how the word “ladyboy” is offensive at all? I mean, what is the proof? According to **Miller** , it’s INHERENTLY offensive. How can it be INHERENTLY offensive if there exists places in the world where there is no controversy over whether or not it is offensive? It’s often offensive to transgender people in the US because it’s (almost) always used in a pejorative and bullying context. Like the word “tranny.” I’m not sure what you accept as proof. I live and work in the community every single day, and have met, known, or know in total thousands of transgender persons. I travel the US giving speeches and participating in panels and presentations on these subjects. The word simply is considered to be offensive in most contexts. So much so that when I lecture on transgender, third gender, and intersex communities from around the world, I have to preface my first use of the term “ladyboy” with a disclaimer, otherwise there’s this \ when I use the word. Do you want Webster’s to tell you that it is? Start asking real, actual, non-internet transgender people if it’s offensive. Ask a hundred of us. I’ll wager 75% answer that it’s offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/281 "2016-08-19T02:39:57Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > I don’t know. It simply is. I’ve been there and personally been in their society now. yes, I’ve been there too. And “ladyboy” is not offensive. > [@](#): > > It’s often offensive to transgender people in the US because it’s (almost) always used in a pejorative and bullying context. Like the word “tranny.” If that were true, you would think some sort of dictionary would label the word “ladyboy” as offensive, like they do for “tranny” but I haven’t found any that do. > [@](#): > > I’m not sure what you accept as proof. I would accept as proof the same sort of site or documentation that says “tranny” is offensive. > [@](#): > > Do you want Webster’s to tell you that it is? Start asking real, actual, non-internet transgender people if it’s offensive. Ask a hundred of us. I’ll wager 75% answer that it’s offensive. Start asking real, actual, people who are not transgender whether or not cisgender is offensive. Is there some sort of percentage that an informal poll has to reach before a word is considered offensive? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519.md?page=15)