# I Don't Get and Am Sick of Trans-Stuff **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2016, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519 "2016-08-12T02:10:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/522 "2016-09-07T08:37:34Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Really? Someone who called me a “homophobe” would be warned in the Pit? I find that difficult to believe. Next you’ll tell me calling someone a “racist” or a “white supremacist” would garner a warning as well :rolleyes: Considering outright calling someone a bigot doesn’t appear to attract even a mod note in The Pit, I don’t think “homophobe” is even a perceptible blip on the Unacceptable Conduct Radar, somehow. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/523 "2016-09-07T13:27:36Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I see. So “fuck yes” and “fuck no” would be the same ‘word’ to you then? :rolleyes: Ummm, no. That’s why I am talking about context. Yes, the word “fuck” is the same in both phrases, but is followed by a different word in either example. In English (and pretty much all languages), two different words can come together, and create a whole new phrase that has a new meaning of the words independently. In this case, the two phrases have opposite meanings, even though one of the words is the same. Isn’t that amazing! Most children learn this around 18 months of age. Once you master this, we’ll start you on 3 word phrases, imagine the possibilities! > [@](#): > > But saying “Dirty ladyboy” is somehow different? Well, in this case, you have paired an insult along with a word that many consider to be a slur. They consider this word to be a slur as it is used against them in the process of meaningful discrimination and persecution. “Dirty cisgender” describes someone who is born content with their gender, and practices poor hygiene. As the word “cisgender” is not used along with meaningful discrimination and persecution, it is not an insult or a slur. “Dirty ladyboy” is much more hostile, as the word “ladyboy” is used along with meaningful discrimination and persecution. > [@](#): > > I think you are just arguing something that you don’t understand, only that you think you ‘should’ be arguing :rolleyes: You are right in that I don’t understand why I am arguing with you. Unless you are actually picking up language as a second form of communication, you should have already mastered most of these concepts in your toddler years. Do you still call all small four legged animals “doggy”, or have you advanced enough to differentiate between subtle differences, like cat and dog? If your argument is that you can find places where cisgender is used as an insult, I would suggest going to literally anywhere else. 99.9% of the rest of the world or even internet, and you won’t even see the word, much less see it used in an insulting manner. “Ladyboy,” on the other hand, is pretty ubiquitous. As, that I am aware of, I do not know any transgendered people IRL, I can’t say that I have seen the word “ladyboy” used disparagingly against them IRL. I have, however, heard the word used to disparage people for perceived weakness, femininess, or sexual orientation. It was not used kindly or clinically, but certainly insultingly. It was used in the manner of “there is something wrong with being what is described by this term, and you resemble it.” Do you consider being called “caucasian” to be a slur? If not, do you consider “nigger” to be a slur? If you feel differently about the two words, why is that? Could they have been used in different contexts both historically, and in the present that would account for their difference? I do realize that these are very advanced concepts, usually not mastered until age 8 or so, so I did my best to explain. Let me know if you need any more help. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/524 "2016-09-07T15:22:51Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Well, in this case, you have paired an insult along with a word that many consider to be a slur. They consider this word to be a slur as it is used against them in the process of meaningful discrimination and persecution. I’m going to ignore the rest of your pointless drivel, because this is the crux of the argument. How do YOU know that “many” consider the word “ladyboy” to be a slur? Have you taken a poll? Do you have a link to any studies that show this? Or are you just making up shit in your zest to be a good Social Keyboard Warrior? > [@](#): > > “Dirty ladyboy” is much more hostile, as the word “ladyboy” is used along with meaningful discrimination and persecution. Is it? How do you know? > [@](#): > > If your argument is that you can find places where cisgender is used as an insult, I would suggest going to literally anywhere else. 99.9% of the rest of the world or even internet, and you won’t even see the word, much less see it used in an insulting manner. So if I find some instances of it being used in an insulting manner, you will change your mind? > [@](#): > > Do you consider being called “caucasian” to be a slur? If not, do you consider “nigger” to be a slur? If you feel differently about the two words, why is that? Could they have been used in different contexts both historically, and in the present that would account for their difference? Yes, and you can find in any source on-line or not, that the word “nigger” is a slur. So far, for “ladyboy” we have a couple people on this message board and a (snigger) “Reddit Thread” that say “ladyboy” is a slur. And some of those people don’t even know why, only that they THINK it is. And don’t be all offended over the word “snigger” If you think it sounds offensive, perhaps you can go into your safe place, cover your ears and meditate until you feel better you moronic cis. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/525 "2016-09-07T21:58:18Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I read on the Internet one time that you sucked dick on a corner for $5. Boy, you are _really_ desperate to be resorting to calling me a cheap whore - but then, it is in line with you being a bigot, among other reprehensible things. When all else fails stop arguing and accuse the opposition of sexual impropriety. Can’t you do better than that? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/526 "2016-09-07T22:05:49Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I read on the Internet one time that you sucked dick on a corner for $5. I’m not riffling through 15 years of Internet posts to find it though :rolleyes: [Moderating] Saying that other posters suck dick is a violation of the Pit’s language rules. Please avoid doing this in the future. No warning issued. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/527 "2016-09-08T03:29:59Z")
Basically, after pages of pontificating, debating, circular arguing, endless reductionism, etc., the way the sum total of everything you’ve written reads, manson1972, is “I wanna be able to call transgender women ‘ladyboys’ on this message board and get away with it because people are using the word ‘cisgender’ and it makes me a sad panda.” If there’s a deeper meaning…it’s been lost. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/528 "2016-09-08T03:57:59Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Really? Someone who called me a “homophobe” would be warned in the Pit? I find that difficult to believe. Next you’ll tell me calling someone a “racist” or a “white supremacist” would garner a warning as well :rolleyes: Sorry. I was considering the question from the perspective of the rest of the SDMB, not the Pit. I don’t tend to keep up on what is permitted or forbidden in The Pit. Sorry for the confusion. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/529 "2016-09-08T15:29:56Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Boy, you are _really_ desperate to be resorting to calling me a cheap whore - but then, it is in line with you being a bigot, among other reprehensible things. When all else fails stop arguing and accuse the opposition of sexual impropriety. > > Can’t you do better than that? Well, considering I did NOT in fact call you a cheap whore, I’m not sure what you are whining about. I said I read it on the Internet. And it’s funny that you resort to the time honored tradition of calling someone a bigot based on nothing more than the fact they disagree with you on something. Very Nice! ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/530 "2016-09-08T15:31:13Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > [Moderating] > Saying that other posters suck dick is a violation of the Pit’s language rules. Please avoid doing this in the future. > > No warning issued. > [/Moderating] Sorry, didn’t know that was a rule (no snark) ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/531 "2016-09-08T15:36:51Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Basically, after pages of pontificating, debating, circular arguing, endless reductionism, etc., the way the sum total of everything you’ve written reads, manson1972, is “I wanna be able to call transgender women ‘ladyboys’ on this message board and get away with it because people are using the word ‘cisgender’ and it makes me a sad panda.” > > If there’s a deeper meaning…it’s been lost. I don’t know how you get that at all. I haven’t called anybody anything. Nor do I want to. I want to know why “ladyboy” is considered a slur, and why ‘cisgender’ isn’t. The only reasons I can find are a couple of posters who SAY it is offensive, and other posters jumping on the SKW bandwagon with things they “heard” or “read about one time” or just “made up in their own head” And now I just get “Because it IS, you bigot” when as far as I can see, I’ve neither said nor done anything to be called a “bigot” except disagree with people on whether or not a couple of words are inherently offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/532 "2016-09-08T16:27:18Z")
Why is anything offensive, other than that people say it is? That’s what offense is. It’s not like that’s hard to grasp, or hasn’t already been acknowledged. You’re being disingenuous when you say you just want to know, and you don’t know. What you want is to be convinced that the words are unequal in terms of offense, as if the fact that this is a matter of opinion makes it meaningless. You aren’t convinced. Duly noted. Stop pretending this is a different conversation. They’re all a bunch of letters. No one word is more offensive, inherently – literally inherently – than another word. You can say whatever word you like, and then you can say it’s not offensive because you say so. And then you can say another word is offensive, even if someone else says it isn’t. And you can demand proof and you can express your chagrin that no one will simply enucleate this straightforward thing you’re asking for. You can do these things. Counterpoint: this is what babies do. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/533 "2016-09-08T17:03:25Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I want to know why “ladyboy” is considered a slur, and why ‘cisgender’ isn’t. Do you really want to know? All I can give you is my opinion based upon experience living in a community and working in a community for close to half a decade now, as well as being a researcher and historian in said community. It’s not what you want, Webster’s or the OED. **In the United States** there is greater cultural gender dimorphism than in other transgender/third gender cultures in the world, such as in Thailand. In the US for many transgender persons it is considered offensive to bring most, if not almost all, references to the “old” gender into play in word or speech. Calling a transgender woman in the US “ladyboy” is largely offensive because of the “boy” part of it. You are not acknowledging the current gender of the person and leaving it at that, you are bringing up by reference to the old gender the past of the person. The same applies to transgender men (where the “lady” would be offensive), except that “ladyboy” seems to rarely be used as a term for transgender men (in Thailand, they’re called “tomboys”). When I see my old name on an e-mail that someone drags up, or an old tech paper with my old name on it, or anything like that, it lets all the wind out of my sails. And when someone says to me something like “you were always a cute boy” or “weren’t you in boy’s track,” etc. it can be demoralizing. I’m less sensitive to it because I took great pains to desensitize myself to it someone, because as a public activist and media figure I knew that my past would be used against me. But when I bring up the old gender of one of my guests on the air, despite their being on my show for the sole purpose of talking about their life, you can see them steel themselves, grit their teeth so to speak, or even take a pause and give me a brief _look._ In the US transgender community, “ladyboy” generally can sometimes be given the same offensive weighting as “he-she” or “shemale” or “shim.” “Shemale” is probably weighted more offensive though because it is commonly used with the word “prostitute.” Then again, in transgender erotica online (primarily written by straight or gay men), “ladyboy” almost always means “transgender prostitute.” I’ve seen whole collections of “ladyboy erotica”, typically involving a man hiring a prostitute. That’s my experiential and researched opinion. It’s not a citation. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/534 "2016-09-08T18:30:33Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > No one word is more offensive, inherently – literally inherently – than another word. Then I suggest you chastise **Miller** , who said that the word “ladyboy” IS, in fact, inherently offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/535 "2016-09-08T18:40:37Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Do you really want to know? Yes, actually, I do. > [@](#): > > All I can give you is my opinion based upon experience living in a community and working in a community for close to half a decade now, as well as being a researcher and historian in said community. It’s not what you want, Webster’s or the OED. > > **In the United States** there is greater cultural gender dimorphism than in other transgender/third gender cultures in the world, such as in Thailand. In the US for many transgender persons it is considered offensive to bring most, if not almost all, references to the “old” gender into play in word or speech. Calling a transgender woman in the US “ladyboy” is largely offensive because of the “boy” part of it. You are not acknowledging the current gender of the person and leaving it at that, you are bringing up by reference to the old gender the past of the person. The same applies to transgender men (where the “lady” would be offensive), except that “ladyboy” seems to rarely be used as a term for transgender men (in Thailand, they’re called “tomboys”). > > When I see my old name on an e-mail that someone drags up, or an old tech paper with my old name on it, or anything like that, it lets all the wind out of my sails. And when someone says to me something like “you were always a cute boy” or “weren’t you in boy’s track,” etc. it can be demoralizing. I’m less sensitive to it because I took great pains to desensitize myself to it someone, because as a public activist and media figure I knew that my past would be used against me. But when I bring up the old gender of one of my guests on the air, despite their being on my show for the sole purpose of talking about their life, you can see them steel themselves, grit their teeth so to speak, or even take a pause and give me a brief _look._ > > In the US transgender community, “ladyboy” generally can sometimes be given the same offensive weighting as “he-she” or “shemale” or “shim.” “Shemale” is probably weighted more offensive though because it is commonly used with the word “prostitute.” Then again, in transgender erotica online (primarily written by straight or gay men), “ladyboy” almost always means “transgender prostitute.” I’ve seen whole collections of “ladyboy erotica”, typically involving a man hiring a prostitute. > > That’s my experiential and researched opinion. It’s not a citation. I appreciate your experience and your work with transgender and other issues. No where have I ever said, implied, or hinted at anything regarding denigrating anyone of any designation (for lack of a better non-offensive word). And I have no doubt that some people find the term “ladyboy” offensive. I’m not looking to use it to describe anyone, call anyone, or insist that someone IS a “ladyboy”. But, relying on one person’s opinion when it comes to whether not somebody would be warned on this message board for calling someone simply a “ladyboy” smacks of appeal to authority. Any other word that is recognized as denigrating, or a slur, or some other term is recognized in the leading dictionaries as “offensive” or “disparaging” Why is this word different? That is the question I have. Also “tomboy” in Thailand refers to more than just transgender men. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/536 "2016-09-08T19:11:55Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Then I suggest you chastise **Miller** , who said that the word “ladyboy” IS, in fact, inherently offensive. Yeah, no kidding. That’s where the sentences that I used to form my post came from – I read the other words in this thread and formed thoughts about them. But sure, good suggestion. Hey **Miller** , you’re a stupid idiot; you said a thing in a way that taken literally can be accused of being imprecise. Come here and let me chastise you. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/537 "2016-09-08T19:13:43Z")
Now then, **manson** , about all the stupid shit _you’ve_ been saying. Anything on that? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/538 "2016-09-08T19:17:16Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Yeah, no kidding. That’s where the sentences that I used to form my post came from – I read the other words in this thread and formed thoughts about them. > > But sure, good suggestion. Hey **Miller** , you’re a stupid idiot; you said a thing in a way that taken literally can be accused of being imprecise. Come here and let me chastise you. Pretty lame chastisement. Maybe if you added flogging or something it would be better. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/539 "2016-09-08T19:19:59Z")
Chastise me, **Jimmy**! Chastise me _so good_! ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/540 "2016-09-08T19:20:15Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Now then, **manson** , about all the stupid shit _you’ve_ been saying. Anything on that? Really? I’m not aware of any stupid shit I’ve said in this thread. Care to point it out? I will gladly acknowledge anything I say, because I own my opinions and don’t hide behind taunts of “Bigot!” when someone doesn’t agree with me. Be warned, some things may have been posted under the influence, so I may not remember them, but will still gladly acknowledge them. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/541 "2016-09-08T19:21:28Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Chastise me, **Jimmy**! Chastise me _so good_! pics or it didn’t happen [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519.md?page=28)