# I Don't Get and Am Sick of Trans-Stuff **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2016, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519 "2016-08-12T02:10:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/623 "2017-11-27T01:49:07Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Fight or flight response, if you will. I have never heard anybody ask what someone else’s “pronouns” are. Since I had no idea what was expected and didn’t want to embarrass myself, I eased myself out of it. I also don’t think I need to identify that way. If others do, that’s their choice, but putting everyone on the spot seems wrong. By the way, I don’t understand how a person can be identified as a “they”, unless multiple personalities are involved. Please explain. Well, I obviously wasn’t there, and have no idea with what tone it was presented. But to me there’s a big difference between “What’s your name, and if you have any pronoun preferences, please let us know now” vs “ok, everyone MUST now introduce themselves with their name, and also a detailed and exhaustive cataloging of all of your pronouns, OK GO”, if you see what I mean. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/624 "2017-11-27T02:19:16Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > OK, that’s cool. > > So you never use pronouns to describe yourself? I thought the only people who didn’t use pronouns to identify themselves were Bob Dole and professional wrestlers. > > It’s actually the opposite. It’s showing respect for your gender identity, whatever it may be. > > “They” - generic term that can be used for both multiple persons and an individual. I was taught this about 45 years ago in 1st grade. You’ve never in all your life and all your time online ever encountered anyone using “they” as a generic, genderless term? For a smart person, you sure seem to like to put words in others’ mouths. I’ve never heard someone use ‘they’ to refer to one person, as it’s a plural pronoun. Wasn’t taught that way, and don’t use it that way. Of course I use pronouns, but have never been asked to state my preferences in public. If you wish to continue your bullshit outrage over something I haven’t said, then have at it, but it will be a monologue. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/625 "2017-11-27T02:21:43Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > For a smart person, you sure seem to like to put words in others’ mouths. I’ve never heard someone use ‘they’ to refer to one person, as it’s a plural pronoun. Wasn’t taught that way, and don’t use it that way. Of course I use pronouns, but have never been asked to state my preferences in public. > > If you wish to continue your bullshit outrage over something I haven’t said, then have at it, but it will be a monologue. You’ve never heard someone say “if someone wants a great car, they should buy a Toyota” or something like that? Never in your whole life? ---
**Author:** ![Helena330](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/helena330/32/531_2.png) [@Helena330](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helena330)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/626 "2017-11-27T04:22:13Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You’ve never heard someone say “if someone wants a great car, they should buy a Toyota” or something like that? Never in your whole life? I’m pretty sure\*\* Chefguy\*\* has used “they” in that sense. Where you’ve lost him (I think) and me (I know) is that “they” seems to be used for a singular person? Is that correct? I’m as accepting as can be with whatever pronouns people want to use (note that I only heard that usage in a gender class earlier this year), however, this use of “they” has me confused. Is the idea that “s/he” can be replaced with “they”? Instead of saying, “She’s over there,” one would say “They’re over there”? **Una** , ss **guin** said, this is a case of ignorance, not malice. What might be obvious to some people isn’t always clear to others. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/627 "2017-11-27T04:23:02Z")
> [@Helena330](#): > > I’m pretty sure\*\* Chefguy\*\* has used “they” in that sense. Where you’ve lost him (I think) and me (I know) is that “they” seems to be used for a singular person? Is that correct? I’m as accepting as can be with whatever pronouns people want to use (note that I only heard that usage in a gender class earlier this year), however, this use of “they” has me confused. Is the idea that “s/he” can be replaced with “they”? Instead of saying, “She’s over there,” one would say “They’re over there”? > > **Una** , ss **guin** said, this is a case of ignorance, not malice. What might be obvious to some people isn’t always clear to others. Yes, that is the case as I understand it for some folks. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/628 "2017-11-27T04:32:09Z")
“They” is a good default when you don’t know the gender of the person. “if someone wants a great car, they should buy a Toyota”, as **iiandyiiii** says. Extend that to situations where you have some reason to think the person in question is transgender or genderqueer. “They” might not be their preferred pronoun but it’s inoffensive and because of its neutrality, never wrong — at worst it is imprecise. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/629 "2017-11-27T04:54:23Z")
Another thing is when someone says, “tell us what your pronouns are”, someone who’s not really all that familiar with gender issues might be like, “well what do you mean by ‘my pronouns’?” As in what context. It might be better to also say it like, “Tell us what your pronouns, as in how you want to be referred to, (she/her, he/him, they/them, etc)”. A lot of this is really new to people, even the most trans-friendly individual might be like, “WTF?” ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/630 "2017-11-27T04:55:48Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > I was at something the other day where the person leading the discussion wanted everyone to “tell us your name, where you live and what your pronouns are.” Since I had no idea WTF the last part meant, I left. I think I’m too old for today’s world. > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > At the least, you’d think maybe he’d have stuck around, hoping to find out exactly “WTF the last part meant” rather than just fleeing back into ignorance. Huh. The first time I ran into this, I was confused, too. No, it’s not at all obvious. But I asked and was told. > [@cochrane](#): > > I wouldn’t have gotten this, either. For me, it’s “you” if talking directly to me, “he” or “him” if talking about me in the third person, and “me, myself, and I” if I’m talking about myself. > > Anybody else, of course, I’ll call them whatever they prefer to be called. If you are talking to me, I prefer “you” or “we” or “y’all”. If I am talking about me it’s “me” or “I” or “we” or “myself”. If you’re talking about me and I’m not there, I don’t actually care what pronouns you use. You are probably least likely to confuse others if you use “she”, but I’ve been called “he”, “ze”, and “they”, as well. So long as it’s not malicious, it’s fine. > [@Chefguy](#): > > …I’ve never heard someone use ‘they’ to refer to one person, as it’s a plural pronoun… I have. I have about a dozen friends who prefer it. And I still can’t get used to it. I can use “they” for an unknown person (although it tends to sound sloppy to me.) “Look, someone left their wallet here.” But say “Sam went to the mall, and they saw…” and I think “who was Sam with?” EVERY SINGLE TIME. Drives me nuts. I’m trying to get used to it, because, friends, yah know. This is a form of expression I have heard in ordinary conversation maybe 30 times, but it still trips me up. That use of “they” is novel. The singular “they” used in the 14th century (and deemed grammatically incorrect for about 150 years until, I dunno, maybe 1995, although it never dropped out of common parlance) is for an unknown person. “Look, someone left their wallet here. Let’s look and see if we can figure out who it belongs to.” Not for a known person. Even replacing “who it belongs to” with “who they are” triggers my “BAD GRAMMAR” reflex. But it doesn’t actively confuse me, like the specific singular they. Anyway, I’m trying. And I respect that language changes, and that this is a good change. And I’m sure I’ll get used to it eventually. But I kinda resent it when people act is if it’s supposed to sound completely normal to me. Yeah, the minor problems of the majority, I know. I’ll go find my “trans ally” hat in a minute. But this is the pit, so I figured it was a good place to rant. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/631 "2017-11-27T06:55:11Z")
_”Tell us what your pronouns are”_ could have saved us sitting through a lot of awkward and uncomfortable “It’s Pat” sketches during Julia Sweeney’s tenure on SNL. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/632 "2017-11-27T07:44:04Z")
With the adoption/acceptance of “they/them/their” as referring to specific known singular individual, are we keeping noun/verb agreement wrt number (_”Rodney, the transgender person I’ve hired as my new chauffeur, is such a treasure; I can hardly wait for you to meet them! They is bringing the Rolls around - - there they comes now!”_)? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/633 "2017-11-27T08:13:05Z")
Disclaimer: English is not my first language. What is wrong with “it”? If you want to use they to indicate 1 person what should I use to indicate a group? Or does that become clear in context? Like: I am You are She/he/they is We are They are? ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/634 "2017-11-27T09:16:19Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#): > > What is wrong with “it”? Other than being _literally_ dehumanizing? > [@](#): > > If you want to use they to indicate 1 person what should I use to indicate a group? People keep saying this, despite having no problem differentiating between the two identical forms of ‘you’. It’s bizarre. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/635 "2017-11-27T10:38:41Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Another thing is when someone says, “tell us what your pronouns are”, someone who’s not really all that familiar with gender issues might be like, “well what do you mean by ‘my pronouns’?” As in what context. It might be better to also say it like, “Tell us what your pronouns, as in how you want to be referred to, (she/her, he/him, they/them, etc)”. > > A lot of this is really new to people, even the most trans-friendly individual might be like, “WTF?” My preferred pronouns are elided and the possessive is gender-neutral, with a number which refers to the objects owned and not to the amount of owners… I probably would have understood what was being asked but depending on who else was there, I might actually have said what I just wrote. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/636 "2017-11-27T12:04:51Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > With the adoption/acceptance of “they/them/their” as referring to specific known singular individual, are we keeping noun/verb agreement wrt number (_”Rodney, the transgender person I’ve hired as my new chauffeur, is such a treasure; I can hardly wait for you to meet them! They is bringing the Rolls around - - there they comes now!”_)? Nope. _”Rodney, the transgender person I’ve hired as my new chauffeur, is such a treasure; I can hardly wait for you to meet them! They are bringing the Rolls around - - there they come now!”_ Matching gender but not number. Grammatically, I would have preferred “it”, expanding its use from babies of unknown gender to adults. But that comes with “not a person” baggage, and “they” seems to have won. I do know some people who prefer “ze” or “e” or “xe”. If only they all preferred the same new pronoun, we might have been spared “they”. But “they” is clearly winning. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/637 "2017-11-27T12:22:59Z")
‘They’ won centuries ago. Singular they predates the loss of the t-v distinction in standard English, again by centuries. (Though not the singular use of ‘you’, which started out as a French-influenced sign of respect. It just took a couple centuries to fully displace thou.) Despite this people who happily use the singular you have been bitching about the singular they since the 19th century (several centuries after singular they became enshrined as a standard, and uncontroversial, usage). ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/638 "2017-11-27T12:42:01Z")
> [@My\_Dog\_Jack](#): > > The gay community has never been there in the past for feminism, nor for black rights nor for the rights of the impoverished. It’s disingenuous to believe for a minute that the gay community has been anywhere else other than under a rock when it comes to equality of rights. I know this poster has taken involuntary leave of the messageboard but I wanted to mention in passing that during the 1984 British miner’s strike a subset of the LGBT (well, LG at least) community actively worked to raise funds and awareness to support the striking miners despite having no ulterior motive for doing so. [They even made a film about it](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pride_(2014_film)). ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/639 "2017-11-27T12:48:15Z")
See my post above “Look, someone left their wallet here.” That’s been common parlance for ages. “Look, someone left their wallet here. Let’s look in it and see if we can figure out who they are.” Has been recognized as bad grammar since they started writing grammar books, but has nonetheless been commonly used. But “Sam went to the mall, and they saw…” With that “they” referring to Sam has no historical precedent to speak of. It’s a novel extension of the singular they used for an abstract person. It’s not a bad change. It’s probably a good, helpful change to our language. But it’s a change and it feels really weird to anyone who came of age before it was invented. And the lack of distinction between singular and plural “you”? That is annoying enough that regionally we have “y’all” and “youse”, fixing that problem. I’m not even from one of those regions, but I started using y’all decades ago for clarity in speech, when there might be confusion as to whether I was speaking about one or more people. Personally, I’m rooting for the plural “theys/thems”. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/640 "2017-11-27T14:27:23Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No (perhaps), I think it’s not understanding the question. If someone asked me what pronouns I used 10 years ago, I would have had a blank look on my face. “I?” “Me?” “They”, when referring to a group of others? “You” if referring to someone else that I’m talking to? > > Not until I heard the question in the context of gender identity did I have any understanding of what was actually being asked. Since he brought it right to a thread about “trans-stuff,” I think he sussed that it was about gender. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/641 "2017-11-27T17:01:41Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > For a smart person, you sure seem to like to put words in others’ mouths. I’ve never heard someone use ‘they’ to refer to one person, as it’s a plural pronoun. [No, it isn’t solely a plural pronoun.](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/they) > [@Merriam-Webster](#): > > The use of they, their, them, and themselves as pronouns of indefinite gender and indefinite number is well established in speech and writing, even in literary and formal contexts. I recommend you write Merriam-Webster and tell them that they’re incorrect. Let us all know how that goes. > [@Chefguy](#): > > If you wish to continue your bullshit outrage over something I haven’t said, then have at it, but it will be a monologue. You were the one who jumped in with the flip comment about multiple personalities, something which implicitly ties the stigma of mental illness to use of gender-neutral pronouns. You made that statement without even trying first to fact-check, so I’m correcting your ignorance. You can call that whatever you feel like, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/642 "2017-11-27T17:14:50Z")
> [@Helena330](#): > > **Una** , ss **guin** said, this is a case of ignorance, not malice. What might be obvious to some people isn’t always clear to others. I don’t believe I ever implied it was malice, but it certainly takes a lot of ignorance. Having actually sat through maybe 2,000+ situations where someone asks “what are your pronouns,” I can say that in every case it was done in a very clear-cut meaningful manner. It’s almost always along the lines of: "Let’s everyone introduce ourselves and state their preferred pronouns. For example, I’m Skeeter Crawfish, and my preferred pronouns are ‘he’ and ‘him.’ " If the leader of the group doesn’t explain even that little, then you can take an example from everyone else in the audience: "Hi, I’m Jayne, and I go by ‘she’ and ‘her.’ ", etc. Or…ask the leader of the group what the heck they mean? Fleeing the meeting over momentary confusion sure seems like a nutty over-reaction. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519.md?page=31) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519.md?page=33)