# I Don't Get and Am Sick of Trans-Stuff **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2016, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519 "2016-08-12T02:10:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 33
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/643 "2017-11-27T17:52:06Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > I don’t believe I ever implied it was malice, but it certainly takes a lot of ignorance. > > Having actually sat through maybe 2,000+ situations where someone asks “what are your pronouns,” I can say that in every case it was done in a very clear-cut meaningful manner. It’s almost always along the lines of: > > "Let’s everyone introduce ourselves and state their preferred pronouns. For example, I’m Skeeter Crawfish, and my preferred pronouns are ‘he’ and ‘him.’ " If the leader of the group doesn’t explain even that little, then you can take an example from everyone else in the audience: "Hi, I’m Jayne, and I go by ‘she’ and ‘her.’ ", etc. Or…ask the leader of the group what the heck they mean? > > Fleeing the meeting over momentary confusion sure seems like a nutty over-reaction. Out of curiosity, how often have you encountered this explicit discussion of pronouns in contexts totally separate from trans issues? I mean, if you are going to a discussion of trans issues it makes total sense, but I’ve never encountered it at just a random board game night, or work retreat, or what have you. I’ll be curious to see if it becomes standard practice going forward. My guess is it won’t, at least explicitly, just because the number of trans people in the world is so small. But I’d also guess that “ok, let’s go around the room and everyone say your name” will more and more often be understood to implicitly include “and if the pronouns you’d like us to use are not the ones we’d guess, please let us know”. ---
**Author:** ![LonghornDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/644 "2017-11-27T18:00:20Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > But to me there’s a big difference between “What’s your name, and if you have any pronoun preferences, please let us know now” vs “ok, everyone MUST now introduce themselves with their name, and also a detailed and exhaustive cataloging of all of your pronouns, OK GO”, if you see what I mean. I think I would agree with this. I would feel uncomfortable with the latter but not with the former. Asking people to state their pronoun is too hippyish for me. I would feel the same way as if they asked me to state my spirit animal or something. The former is more like asking me to recognize that sometimes gender isn’t a binary simple situation. I’m perfectly fine with that, and I can see that a clarification can be helpful. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/645 "2017-11-27T18:28:40Z")
By saying “Speak up if there might be a problem” we are putting people into a bind. Only people who are trans or who otherwise may not fit neatly into a gender-identity box would be potentially forced to speak up, while most cis people would not think to. So, it would be like saying “Okay, who here is trans? Raise your hands.” Having everyone speak may make some feel goofy at first, but that’s very temporary. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/646 "2017-11-27T18:30:20Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > See my post above > > “Look, someone left their wallet here.” > > That’s been common parlance for ages. > > “Look, someone left their wallet here. Let’s look in it and see if we can figure out who they are.” > > Has been recognized as bad grammar since they started writing grammar books, but has nonetheless been commonly used. > > But “Sam went to the mall, and they saw…” > > With that “they” referring to Sam has no historical precedent to speak of. It’s a novel extension of the singular they used for an abstract person. > > It’s not a bad change. It’s probably a good, helpful change to our language. But it’s a change and it feels really weird to anyone who came of age before it was invented. > > And the lack of distinction between singular and plural “you”? That is annoying enough that regionally we have “y’all” and “youse”, fixing that problem. I’m not even from one of those regions, but I started using y’all decades ago for clarity in speech, when there might be confusion as to whether I was speaking about one or more people. > > Personally, I’m rooting for the plural “theys/thems”. No love for “yinz”? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/647 "2017-11-27T18:32:19Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > My preferred pronouns are elided and the possessive is gender-neutral, with a number which refers to the objects owned and not to the amount of owners… I probably would have understood what was being asked but depending on who else was there, I might actually have said what I just wrote. I may never find myself needing to ask someone what their preferred pronouns are, but if I did and that was your reply, I’d have absolutely no fucking clue what you just said. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/648 "2017-11-27T18:50:24Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Out of curiosity, how often have you encountered this explicit discussion of pronouns in contexts totally separate from trans issues? I mean, if you are going to a discussion of trans issues it makes total sense, but I’ve never encountered it at just a random board game night, or work retreat, or what have you. I’ll be curious to see if it becomes standard practice going forward. My guess is it won’t, at least explicitly, just because the number of trans people in the world is so small. But I’d also guess that “ok, let’s go around the room and everyone say your name” will more and more often be understood to implicitly include “and if the pronouns you’d like us to use are not the ones we’d guess, please let us know”. I encounter it pretty frequently in contexts that aren’t explicitly trans-focused, but that’s usually because the organizers are trans themselves, or have a lot of friends and acquaintances who are trans and are likely to attend. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/649 "2017-11-27T18:56:40Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > By saying “Speak up if there might be a problem” we are putting people into a bind. Only people who are trans or who otherwise may not fit neatly into a gender-identity box would be potentially forced to speak up, while most cis people would not think to. So, it would be like saying “Okay, who here is trans? Raise your hands.” > > Having everyone speak may make some feel goofy at first, but that’s very temporary. I dunno… if we go around the room and 19 people say “I’m Bob, I go by he/him/his” or “I’m Jane, I go by she/her/hers”, and one person says “I’m Pat, I go by they/their/theirs”, they still stick out, and are still just as outed as the only non-binary-gendered person in the room. (And it’s not the same as outing people as trans… after all, a fair percentage of trans people “pass” as their newly chosen gender just fine. So transwoman Jane can just say “I’m Jane” and everyone will do the default of using standard female pronouns for her.) There are plenty of characteristics a human have which make them not one whit less valuable, less human, less worthy of respect, but which are unusual. If you have life-threatening peanut allergies you might want to mention that to people upon meeting them in some contexts. That’s no reason to add “and I do NOT have life-threatening peanut allergies” to the standard introduction that the majority of people give. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/650 "2017-11-27T18:59:24Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Out of curiosity, how often have you encountered this explicit discussion of pronouns in contexts totally separate from trans issues?.. I’ve run into it several times, and while it is obviously an accommodation for trans people in the group, it’s never been “about trans people”. The first time I encountered this was at a Quaker meeting. We all introduced ourselves, and were invited to give our pronouns. About half of those present did so. I am in a dance club that has a lot of trans members. We wear permanent plastic name tags. (Like employees at a retail place might wear.) And we recently invested in a pile of “pronoun dangles” that people can wear below their name. About 2/3 of regular attendees wear a pronoun dangle. The vast majority of those read “he/him/his” or “she/her/hers”, but we keep “they/them/their” in stick, and order others as requested. When our most recent class began, the registration form asked for name, “name for badge”, contact info, how you learned about us, and also preferred pronouns and which gender role the student wanted to learn. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/651 "2017-11-27T19:00:28Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > No love for “yinz”? 😃 Not familiar with it. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/652 "2017-11-27T19:00:32Z")
If we go around the room and 19 people give their preferred gender, it’s going to be difficult at first to remember them all until people become familiar with everyone else’s preferences. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/653 "2017-11-27T19:04:04Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Not familiar with it. Sorry. Ask **Guin**. Or **Nother Yinzer**. They can tell you. 😃 [Yinz.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yinz) ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/654 "2017-11-27T19:06:10Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > You honestly do not know what the word “pronoun” means? _Seriously?_ Pronouns have been around for like, 10,000 years or so. It’s a very simple question - are you he, she, they, or something else? And the fact that someone showed you courtesy and asked you how you liked to be addressed was enough to cause you to leave? Isn’t that just a tad bit over the top? Pronouns maybe, but the “something else” is hard to grasp for somebody who’s accustomed to two genders. The accusations don’t help either. He’s not going to be more readily acceptable of the new gender identifications by shaming. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/655 "2017-11-27T19:08:39Z")
Is there some sort of list of pronouns that I can pick from if I attend a meeting where this is asked? Or is it just He/she/they? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/656 "2017-11-27T19:15:07Z")
We let people type whatever they want into the form. ---
**Author:** ![Infovore](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infovore/32/420_2.png) [@Infovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Infovore)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/657 "2017-11-27T19:18:35Z")
Just out of curiosity (I’m not being flippant–I really do want to know), why does the statement so often go like this: BOB: Hi, I’m Bob, and I prefer ‘he,’ ‘him,’ and ‘his.’ as opposed to: BOB: Hi, I’m Bob, and I prefer ‘he.’ Is there any case where Bob might use 'he" but not ‘him’ and ‘his’? If not, why the extra words? ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/658 "2017-11-27T19:50:23Z")
> [@Infovore](#): > > Is there any case where Bob might use 'he" but not ‘him’ and ‘his’? If not, why the extra words? I’d guess the “extra words” make the statement more informative. It’s not that “he” is frequently paired with a feminine or neutral possessive, it’s that mentioning the whole trio helps the listener absorb the meaning. It would be reasonable to assume “I prefer he”, meant “I prefer the traditional masculine pronouns of English”, but “I prefer he, him, his” makes it obvious. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/659 "2017-11-27T20:06:43Z")
> [@LonghornDave](#): > > > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > > > Well, I obviously wasn’t there, and have no idea with what tone it was presented. > > > > But to me there’s a big difference between “What’s your name, and if you have any pronoun preferences, please let us know now” vs “ok, everyone MUST now introduce themselves with their name, and also a detailed and exhaustive cataloging of all of your pronouns, OK GO”, if you see what I mean. > > I think I would agree with this. I would feel uncomfortable with the latter but not with the former. Asking people to state their pronoun is too hippyish for me. I would feel the same way as if they asked me to state my spirit animal or something. The former is more like asking me to recognize that sometimes gender isn’t a binary simple situation. I’m perfectly fine with that, and I can see that a clarification can be helpful. In fact, there’s a serious pro-trans argument opposed to insisting people give their pronouns. Often trans and non-binary people aren’t completely “out”, or may not be completely certain of what they prefer, and being put on the spot can be uncomfortable. But when pronouns are being offered up, the trans people I know appreciate cis people offering their pronouns, too, and feel it’s generally supportive. > [@Infovore](#): > > Just out of curiosity (I’m not being flippant–I really do want to know), why does the statement so often go like this: > > BOB: Hi, I’m Bob, and I prefer ‘he,’ ‘him,’ and ‘his.’ > > as opposed to: > > BOB: Hi, I’m Bob, and I prefer ‘he.’ > > Is there any case where Bob might use 'he" but not ‘him’ and ‘his’? If not, why the extra words? Some of the novel pronouns differ in different cases. For example, last year, our class had people who gave their preferred pronouns as: Zie/Zir/Zirs Zie/Hir/Hirs Ey/Em/Eirs Along with more common choices. (like She/Her/Hers) Just the Zie would have been incomplete. And yes, it’s hard to remember all that, and I don’t think anyone who didn’t already know them actually DID remember all the pronouns. In fact, a lot of the younger members called all of them by “They/Them/Theirs”, which put me in the unusual position of correcting the folks who usually remind me to say “they”. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/660 "2017-11-27T22:43:28Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Out of curiosity, how often have you encountered this explicit discussion of pronouns in contexts totally separate from trans issues? Somewhat regularly when I’m on campus, outside of campus often in political action meetings, etc. But then they’re all liberal/left meetings, which likely has an influence. In the business world, never. But then out and proud LGBT persons are kinda rare in business in any event. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/661 "2017-11-27T22:46:34Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > If we go around the room and 19 people give their preferred gender, it’s going to be difficult at first to remember them all until people become familiar with everyone else’s preferences. This is true. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/662 "2017-11-27T23:00:57Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > He’s not going to be more readily acceptable of the new gender identifications by shaming. In other words, “You were just about to convince me/them/the masses of the merits of your position, but you didn’t do it in a prescribed polite enough manner, so tough titties.” In SJ, this is the “tone policing strategy.” It just seemed strange enough to comment upon, that someone on a board that is supposed to have “the sharpest knives in the drawer” would not understand what it means to give the pronouns corresponding to their gender. Especially considering that likely 99% of people on here are going to be strictly binary-state/cisgender/non-intersex anyhow. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519.md?page=32) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519.md?page=34)