# I Don't Get and Am Sick of Trans-Stuff **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2016, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519 "2016-08-12T02:10:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 34
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/663 "2017-11-27T23:09:05Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > In fact, there’s a serious pro-trans argument opposed to insisting people give their pronouns. Often trans and non-binary people aren’t completely “out”, or may not be completely certain of what they prefer, and being put on the spot can be uncomfortable. But when pronouns are being offered up, the trans people I know appreciate cis people offering their pronouns, too, and feel it’s generally supportive. I have never witnessed or heard of a meeting where everyone was required to give their pronouns. It’s meant to be a _courtesy_. People who don’t know or who don’t prefer almost always choose “they/them.” I’ve seen a person choose “it”, and seen a person choose “zhe/zhey”. But it’s rare. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/664 "2017-11-27T23:21:09Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Somewhat regularly when I’m on campus, outside of campus often in political action meetings, etc. But then they’re all liberal/left meetings, which likely has an influence. > > In the business world, never. But then out and proud LGBT persons are kinda rare in business in any event. I think its almost as easy to be an out and proud homosexual as it is to be an out and proud heterosexual. It just doesn’t come up in conversation unless you are talking about your family and home life. Bisexuals and transgender folks have a tougher time. To some extent, homosexuality has been mainstreamed whereas people think of bisexuals as being oversexed and people don’t really have a good handle on transgender yet. And to the OP, transgender folks are frequently the tip of the spear on gay rights issues. AFAICT, Stonewall wasn’t cops beating up gays, it was cops mostly beating up transvestites and transgender folks. Gay guys in skinny jeans and a tight T Shirt didn’t get beat up, guys with boobs or in dressses did. I understand the social justice fatigue that some people are encountering because everything is changing pretty quickly. And its really not enough to tell people like the OP to suck it up. People like the OP vote and frankly their opinion matters more than the “allies” because the allies don’t swing on this issue. The OP clearly wants things to improve for transgender but there is something bothering him and rather than telling him to STFU and suck it up, it would probably make sense to figure out what’s bothering people like the OP and figure out how we can adjust the message to get more people like the Op to get as comfortable with transgender issues as he is with gay lesbian issues. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/665 "2017-11-27T23:28:49Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Bisexuals \<…\> have a tougher time. We really don’t, because most of the can present as (or hide as, depending on your point of view) the orientation that we choose at that time. Also, if that’s your thing, there’s more people available to sleep with. Yes, the “greedy” thing comes up occasionally, but it’s a lot less bad than what I’ve seen happen to gay people. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/666 "2017-11-28T00:19:35Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > In other words, “You were just about to convince me/them/the masses of the merits of your position, but you didn’t do it in a prescribed polite enough manner, so tough titties.” In SJ, this is the “tone policing strategy.” > > It just seemed strange enough to comment upon, that someone on a board that is supposed to have “the sharpest knives in the drawer” would not understand what it means to give the pronouns corresponding to their gender. Especially considering that likely 99% of people on here are going to be strictly binary-state/cisgender/non-intersex anyhow. Well, to some it’s a fairly new thing. I have yet to experience someone asking for my pronouns. Up until recently, I’d have been completely confused. Once someone explained it to me, I’d be cool, but if someone had been like, “Are you serious? Do you honestly not get it?” I probably would’ve been “well, excuse me, I just asked.” All I’m asking for is patience while I’m learning. That’s all – just bear with me. I’m asking questions because I want to learn, not because I want to like, mock you. To you it seems obvious, because you’re involved in this, but a lot of people aren’t, and it’s completely alien to them. It probably depends on what kind of activities you’re involved in, maybe? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/667 "2017-11-28T00:28:18Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > … > In the business world, never. But then out and proud LGBT persons are kinda rare in business in any event. Out and proud LGBT persons are much more common in business than even a couple years ago. At my employer, an out and proud gay man got the company to set up employee affiliation groups, including one for LGBT persons (we also have groups for women, African Americans, veterans, and Hispanics. And maybe I’m missing one or two.) I was at a party recently with a non-binary person who said that are department meetings, the greeting is now, “ladies, gentlemen, and NAME”. I’m pretty sure they are out as non-binary. (I was surprised they opened with a gendered greeting at all. Every meeting I’ve been to in the lady two decades has just diced right in. “Here are our quarterly results”, or whatever.) ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/668 "2017-11-28T02:53:00Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > In other words, “You were just about to convince me/them/the masses of the merits of your position, but you didn’t do it in a prescribed polite enough manner, so tough titties.” In SJ, this is the “tone policing strategy.” “In other words?” My fucking Og, you sure put a heavy dose of bias, opinion, and expectation of malice on somebody who just wasn’t comfortable with the situation. Why not add that he went home to put on his Klan robes as well? Believe me, you are NOT going to bring him around to your way of thinking by portraying him as a blood enemy. This kind of effrontery just creates more Trump supporters. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/669 "2017-11-28T04:14:27Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > “In other words?” My fucking Og, you sure put a heavy dose of bias, opinion, and expectation of malice on somebody who just wasn’t comfortable with the situation. Why not add that he went home to put on his Klan robes as well? Believe me, you are NOT going to bring him around to your way of thinking by portraying him as a blood enemy. This kind of effrontery just creates more Trump supporters. Always love hearing straight people lecture LGBTQ folks how to fight for our rights. That’s definitely a thing that never, ever gets old. ---
**Author:** ![Helena330](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/helena330/32/531_2.png) [@Helena330](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helena330)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/670 "2017-11-28T04:53:57Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Always love hearing straight people lecture LGBTQ folks how to fight for our rights. That’s definitely a thing that never, ever gets old. I don’t think this is that kind of issue, though. I know things never happen fast enough, but some otherwise very supportive people need a little patience and education to catch up. That’s all. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/671 "2017-11-28T05:09:11Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > This kind of effrontery just creates more Trump supporters. This is bullshit. Anyone who could be "pushed’ into supporting someone like Trump because of something like this was never really on the fence, they were just another bigot looking for a socially-acceptable cover. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/672 "2017-11-28T09:24:44Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > I may never find myself needing to ask someone what their preferred pronouns are, but if I did and that was your reply, I’d have absolutely no fucking clue what you just said. That I like Spanish pronouns. And “I have no fucking clue why the heck would anybody ask this” is the reaction I expect most people would have if anybody asked what their pronouns are. I own pronouns now? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/673 "2017-11-28T10:57:53Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > This is bullshit. Anyone who could be "pushed’ into supporting someone like Trump because of something like this was never really on the fence, they were just another bigot looking for a socially-acceptable cover. Largely true. And while, as \*\*Helena330 \*\*points out, there are those who can be brought around to a more enlightened position via patience, education and understanding, these people tend not to be ones who pull out the “LOOK WHAT YOU MADE ME DO” defense. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/674 "2017-11-28T11:32:54Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > In other words, “You were just about to convince me/them/the masses of the merits of your position, but you didn’t do it in a prescribed polite enough manner, so tough titties.” In SJ, this is the “tone policing strategy.” It turns out that people are often really fucking irrational, _especially_ when it comes to issues where you have already previously established that they are being really fucking irrational. > [@MrDibble](#): > > This is bullshit. Anyone who could be "pushed’ into supporting someone like Trump because of something like this was never really on the fence, they were just another bigot looking for a socially-acceptable cover. Well _this_ passes the ideological turing test and is entirely a reasonable descriptor of how people on the fence _and_ Trump supporters think about Trump, LGBT issues, and the like. :rolleyes: I don’t get why this is such a hard concept. Even if you’re right, if you sound like an asshole, _people won’t want to listen_. Especially if you’re criticizing deep-set beliefs (and “What is a man/woman” is often _pretty_ deep-set for people, though thankfully less so in the younger generations), you need to engage them on their level, and not come across like you’re a condescending douchebag. Here, you’re being a jerk, _and_ you’re fundamentally misunderstanding the people you’re talking about. Most Trump supporters don’t self-identify as bigots, or think that there’s anything unreasonable or racist about what they’re doing. You don’t understand them or how they think _whatsoever_, and here you are asserting that they couldn’t possibly be pushed away by the _tone_ of the opposing argument? The second-biggest gaffe of the 2016 presidential election was “[basket of deplorables](https://www.newyorker.com/news/john-cassidy/hillary-clintons-basket-of-deplorables-gaffe)”, and you think tone doesn’t matter to these people? Concern trolling is one thing, but immediately responding like a complete and total jerk in a disproportionate or shitty manner to what may well be an innocent misunderstanding is probably the single most common critique one can level at the social justice movement. And while _I_ get why Una can get quite pissy about this (and, in her situation, I probably would be too), is it really so hard to understand that when people who don’t understand something get their heads bitten off because they misunderstood a social rule or convention, they become _less_ interested in understanding it, and may not even understand why the other party is so quick to bite their heads off? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/675 "2017-11-28T12:58:44Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > “In other words?” My fucking Og, you sure put a heavy dose of bias, opinion, and expectation of malice on somebody who just wasn’t comfortable with the situation. Chefguy came into a thread on trans issues that had just been bumped by someone pretty hateful to announce that “I think I’m too old for today’s world” because someone asked him about pronouns. He brought it to this thread, so he knew it was about gender. From my point of view, he looks like the set of dopers who feign ignorance in order to sound [del]stupid[/del] world-weary and dismissive of others. He didn’t ask a question. He sounded contemptuous to me on my first read, and I haven’t really seen anything since that makes me think he was genuinely confused and not pulling the “But what is Twitter? I’ve never heard of it!” bullshit. I’d be happy to be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/676 "2017-11-28T14:38:51Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Most Trump supporters don’t self-identify as bigots Few bigots do. What’s your point? > [@](#): > > , or think that there’s anything unreasonable or racist about what they’re doing. Or think at all, really. > [@](#): > > You don’t understand them or how they think _whatsoever_, and here you are asserting that they couldn’t possibly be pushed away by the _tone_ of the opposing argument? Pushed by the _tone_? What are they, _snowflakes_? > [@](#): > > The second-biggest gaffe of the 2016 presidential election was “[basket of deplorables](https://www.newyorker.com/news/john-cassidy/hillary-clintons-basket-of-deplorables-gaffe)”, and you think tone doesn’t matter to these people? I think it matters only in so far as they can use it to cover the actions they would have done anyway. > [@](#): > > immediately responding like a complete and total jerk in a disproportionate or shitty manner to what may well be an innocent misunderstanding is probably the single most common critique one can level at the social justice movement. Yep, snowflakes. > [@](#): > > is it really so hard to understand that when people who don’t understand something get their heads bitten off because they misunderstood a social rule or convention, they become _less_ interested in understanding it, and may not even understand why the other party is so quick to bite their heads off? They’re not fucking puppies uncomprehendingly getting their noses rubbed in their wee. They’re (nominally) fucking adults, sulking is for babies. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/677 "2017-11-28T18:49:33Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Pushed by the _tone_? What are they, _snowflakes_? Yes! They are pathetic, _projecting_ snowflakes. Because _everyone is_. Because when addressing someone’s deep-set beliefs, it’s nearly universal that they react negatively when you _also_ call them an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/678 "2017-11-28T18:56:28Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > Believe me, you are NOT going to bring him around to your way of thinking by portraying him as a blood enemy. Now honestly, that seems just a bit of an over-reaction to what was written in here, doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/679 "2017-11-28T18:59:10Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Chefguy came into a thread on trans issues that had just been bumped by someone pretty hateful to announce that “I think I’m too old for today’s world” because someone asked him about pronouns. He brought it to this thread, so he knew it was about gender. > > From my point of view, he looks like the set of dopers who feign ignorance in order to sound [del]stupid[/del] world-weary and dismissive of others. He didn’t ask a question. He sounded contemptuous to me on my first read, and I haven’t really seen anything since that makes me think he was genuinely confused and not pulling the “But what is Twitter? I’ve never heard of it!” bullshit. I’d be happy to be wrong. That was pretty much how it looked to me as well. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/680 "2017-11-29T06:45:02Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Yes! They are pathetic, _projecting_ snowflakes. Because _everyone is_. I’m sure all the pathetic, projecting snowflakes need to tell themselves that.:rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Because when addressing someone’s deep-set beliefs, it’s nearly universal that they react negatively when you _also_ call them an idiot. …but the people with the deeply held belief that they deserve respect for their _correct_ beliefs about gender should just suck it up and be positive when told they’re wrong in very impolite terms? Because in these cases, the dichotomy isn’t false. It’s either/or: _someone_ is going to have to suck it up and listen while they’re told they’re wrong, _however it’s phrased_. I’d prefer that be the person who is objectively wrong, not the person who is right. Why don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/681 "2017-11-29T13:32:40Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > I have never witnessed or heard of a meeting where everyone was required to give their pronouns. It’s meant to be a _courtesy_. People who don’t know or who don’t prefer almost always choose “they/them.” I’ve seen a person choose “it”, and seen a person choose “zhe/zhey”. But it’s rare. Courtesy is in the eye of the beholder. I have personally been uncomfortable when asked to provide pronouns. I have heard of college classes where students felt pressured to give pronouns. When I have to answer, I say “she”. When I don’t have to answer I don’t. “They” is the only pronoun I really object to. I realize I’m going to have to get used to it, but I find it very uncomfortable to hear in conversation about a specific person, as mentioned above. If I could use one of the novel pronouns (Like zie) as an indeterminate pronoun, without it being a political statement, I might do so. But that is not currently an option. I brought the idea of pronoun badges to the guy at my club who made them happen, and I helped fund them. I helped another club implement them. But I don’t wear one, and I asked the guy in charge of them at the other club to make it clear they would be optional. Despite not wearing one, I really like the pronoun badges. They make it enormously easier for me to get other people’s pronouns right. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/682 "2017-11-29T13:46:41Z")
By the way, I understand why people prefer “they” to “it”, but I observe that “they” is the plural of “it” as well as of “he” and “she”. And unlike the distinction between the singular and plural “you”, and for that matter, between the inclusive and exclusive “we”, both of which sometimes cause confusion in real life, I have never once listened to someone talk and wondered whether “they” referred to people or things. Grammatically, “it” would have been the cleaner choice. And one I wouldn’t mind wearing on my badge if anyone else used it. But language isn’t logical. Natural language is full of weirdness and inconsistency. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519.md?page=33) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519.md?page=35)