# I Don't Get and Am Sick of Trans-Stuff **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2016, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519 "2016-08-12T02:10:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/121 "2016-08-14T03:11:08Z")
> [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](#): > > That almost raises itself to the level of a legitimate point. > > Keep trying and you’ll get there baby! > > Next time bring pie. Are you also sick of hearing about all the other battles that have been won through legal protections? (Which was my first question, which you ignored. If I missed your answer, apologies) Prove you deserve pie, and maybe I’ll share. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/122 "2016-08-14T03:17:55Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > It’s perfectly helpful since all the authoritative sources I’ve found say that “cisgender” means precisely “not transgender” No, they really don’t. Is that what Cambridge says? “Precisely?” ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/123 "2016-08-14T03:21:20Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > It’s a bit like homosexual v heterosexual, in my opinion. Is heterosexual the opposite of homosexual? I would say so. But those are not the only two options, so both words serve a purpose. Otherwise, heterosexual would “non-homosexual, non-bisexual, non-asexual, etc.” Bit clunky, I think. Heterosexual, like cisgender, \*\*has an actual definition that includes \*\*“non-” but goes further - is attracted to members of the opposte sex, has a gender identity conforming to biological sex. I phrased this badly - I should have said something “can be defined including” ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/124 "2016-08-14T03:25:11Z")
"I don’t recall saying anything to or about **Leaffan**. But frankly his kid going through this is no different than a “cis-gendered” kid that gets thumped on the daily for reasons they don’t understand. Sympathy and empathy? Certainly. Special emotional status? Fuck no." ~Zeke I didn’t say you did. Which, amazingly, was why I quoted someone else. Twice. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/125 "2016-08-14T03:33:36Z")
Further, if cis-gendered kids were being murdered for their “condition” :dubious:, then I suppose “special emotional status” (whatever the hell that is) should be equally applied. However, since that’s a completely false equivalence, I think I’ll stick to believing that my compassion and understanding are not something I need to guard jealousy because they’re in short supply. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/126 "2016-08-14T04:38:09Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > If the battle is won for trans, then the battle is won for everyone, isn’t it? . . . Both false and invalid. The battle has not been won for transexual or transgender rights. Companies can still fire trans employees without any other reason. And…logically, it doesn’t follow. The battle for, say, Irish rights has been won. Nobody gets fired for being Irish. But that doesn’t, in any way, suggest that all other battles have been won. Factually incorrect, and logically flawed. ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/127 "2016-08-14T05:05:53Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by **Trinopus** > Factually incorrect, and logically flawed. Correctually infact and flogically lawed I don’t know why I had the impulse to type that but I thought it sounded cool. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/128 "2016-08-14T05:11:20Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Both false and invalid. The battle has not been won for transexual or transgender rights. Companies can still fire trans employees without any other reason. > > And…logically, it doesn’t follow. The battle for, say, Irish rights has been won. Nobody gets fired for being Irish. But that doesn’t, in any way, suggest that all other battles have been won. > > Factually incorrect, and logically flawed. No one read my own quote right above that statement, did they? Included in that post, I mean. Like, literally a few spaces above the line you responded to? > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by raventhief View Post > For the OP, do you react so strenuously when you hear about sexism, racism, or homophobia? Are you fucking sick and tired of hearing about that? > > Those battles have been waging a lot longer, in the open, than the trans- issue. So, my lord, you must be sick and fucking tired of hearing about it! After all, you don’t “get” being black in copland, I believe you said, so god, why won’t they shut up about it, right? Or Roger Ailes, god, why can’t they stop talking about sexual harassment! the battle is won, protections are in place! > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Zeke N. Destroi View Post > (snipped) Trans is a battle already won. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/129 "2016-08-14T06:42:23Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > You seem to enjoy putting your ignorance on parade. You are in no position to criticize in that regard. You do not understand transexuality, you do not understand gender, and you do not understand language. You have yet to post anything in this thread that wasn’t rooted in a fundamental ignorance of the subject you were attempting to discuss. > [@](#): > > The way to test for a linguistic opposite is to see if negating one of the terms conveys the same meaning as the other. **Miller** tried to support your case with a flawed example of black vs. white and I patiently explained why it wasn’t a valid example. “Not black” does not mean white, and they are therefore not linguistic opposites any more than blue and yellow which are chromatic opposites in the RGB color model but are not linguistic opposites. So, once again, you have provided a cite in support of your position, that does not actually support your position. Your cite describes things that are mutually incompatible. It gives, in the first sentence of your cite, a set of binary opposites: big and small, short and tall, precede and follow. While certainly, a thing can not be both big and small at the same time, there is still conceptual space in the universe for things we refer to as “medium:” things that are neither big _nor_ small, things that are neither tall nor large, and things that neither precede nor follow. And, occupying that same conceptual space, we have people who are neither male, nor female, who are neither trans- nor cisgendered, who are neither gay nor straight. > [@](#): > > But I provided three examples citing cisgender as meaning the opposite of, or “not”, transgendered. No, you didn’t. You have one cite that starts with a dictionary definition, which includes, ‘Not transgender" as part of its definition, but nothing in the rest of the article supported it. The second cite not only failed to define “cisgender” as meaning the same as “nontransgender,” it doesn’t even define it as the _opposite_ of transgender. Your last cite, similarly, says nothing about "cisgender’ meaning “nontransgender,” but does note it as the opposite of that term. But as we’ve all now learned, things can exist outside of binary opposites. > [@](#): > > No one has ever said the black was the opposite of white… If you asked 99% of the English speaking world, "What’s the opposite of “black,” they would say “white.” > [@](#): > > …or blue was the opposite of yellow… Most art teachers would disagree. > [@](#): > > …but _ **three sources say cisgendered is the opposite of transgendered** _. Two sources, actually. Your second source didn’t address opposites at all, except when discussing the relative positions of North America and Europe. And we all have a firm understanding of how wrong you are in your conception of how opposites work, so I won’t belabor that again. > [@](#): > > This is exactly like the visible / not visible analogy. Nobody gives a fuck about something maybe being indistinct and just barely visible; semantically, visible and invisible are opposites and if something is not visible it is linguistically unambiguously invisible _ **according to what words mean** _. Well, no, it’s not, because while I can’t come up with a third state between “visible” and “not visible,” I’m aware of more than one state between “cisgendered” and “transgendered.” > [@](#): > > Likewise in the context of language nobody gives a fuck about anything in between in the realm of transgenderism because it has nothing to do with the semantic discussion at hand. It’s not a semantic discussion. It’s a civil rights discussion, and there are, in fact, human beings who are not described by either “cisgender” or “transgender,” and I do, in fact, give a fuck about those people. > [@](#): > > It has nothing to do with the fact that “not transgendered” or “non-transgendered” has the same linguistic meaning as the stupid term “cisgendered” _ **according to the cited mainstream definitions** _. Sucks to have multiple authoritative sources contradicting you, but that’s not my problem. Yeah… bad news there. Turns out, none of your cites support your arguments. Just like they didn’t in the “literally” thread. Do you ever actually read these things before you post them? > [@](#): > > If a bunch of lunatic activists want to give it a special-snowflake meaning different from that, they’ve done a very poor job of it because no one seems to know what it is. You can discuss androgyny and intersex matters til the cows come home, I don’t care – but _ **by definition** _ the cited two words are opposites and therefore the stupid invented word is both redundant and ugly. Wow, a lot to unpack there. Your disdain for transpeople in general is noted. You’re arguing that “nobody knows what it means,” in a thread where everyone but you seems to know exactly what it means, you seem to think that there are words out there that aren’t “invented,” and you still don’t get how opposites work. That’s just a fantastic little bundle of stupid, ignorant, and angry. You should go into politics. You’d go far. > [@](#): > > You appear to be too stupid to understand any of this, or maybe you’re so wrapped up in trying to push a political agenda that you can’t see the plain and simple language issue in front of your face. It’s been pointed out before, but it bears repeating: you are fundamentally ignorant in the most basic functions of language, and you should really stop trying to pretend to some expertise there. If for no other reason, than because it’s _terribly_ embarrassing to watch. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/130 "2016-08-14T07:45:01Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Even if we over-generously assume for every obviously trans person I’ve met, there were another three who were trans but I didn’t recognise it, I don’t think that’s over-generous at all. I think for every person you’ve recognised as trans, there are probably quite a lot more that you haven’t. This includes not only people who have physically transitioned so well that you can’t even notice, but also those who haven’t physically transitioned at all (or, at least, not very much), and _at most_ maybe give the impression of being a femme gay man or a butch lesbian. > [@](#): > > There just aren’t that great a number of transsexual people in Australia Enough that they’ll be [counted in this year’s census](https://minus18.org.au/index.php/news-articles/item/823-gender-diversity-added-to-australias-census), apparently. ---
**Author:** ![Chihuahua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dec6dc/32.png) [@Chihuahua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chihuahua)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/131 "2016-08-14T13:17:19Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > There just aren’t that great a number of transsexual people in Australia and while I believe they deserve the same rights as everyone else, I do admit to the surprise at transgender rights being the lefty cause du jour - and scorn being directed at anyone who says anything along the lines of “Sorry, I really don’t care about this a great deal, since it doesn’t affect me or anyone I know.” I think this is the problem with a number of causes. We are all unwilling draftees in the culture wars, and everyone from BLM to PETA wants us to pick a side. Many of these causes ARE important and worth discussing. The problem is that we live in a world where you aren’t allowed to say that you just don’t care about a certain issue without someone demonizing you for it. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/132 "2016-08-14T13:55:48Z")
How many child prostitutes do you know personally? Or married 12yr olds? Know any actual pedophiles? Serial killers? I’m willing to bet you still have pretty strong feelings about those victims of misuse. I’m not equating them. Simply demonstrating that, “I just don’t actually know any!”, isn’t really a very valid defense for not giving a shit about someone being ill treated or denied their rights. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/133 "2016-08-14T15:23:30Z")
**Wolfpup** : I see where you are coming from, but you really are wrong here and **Miller** is right. It might help if we recognize that “cisgendered” is not really part of the vernacular at this point but remains more of a clinical term, a term of art, than anything else. I don’t think it makes sense to talk about how most people understand that term because I’d be surprised if 2 out of 100 random Americans would have any idea what the word means. Many people who do use the term probably use it thinking it means “non-transgendered”, but as a term of art we need to recognize it’s precise meaning, which is to designate one group among several, not just two. There are people who are neither transgendered nor cisgendered. And it’s clear that you know that. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/134 "2016-08-14T18:06:51Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > I think this is the problem with a number of causes. We are all unwilling draftees in the culture wars, and everyone from BLM to PETA wants us to pick a side. Many of these causes ARE important and worth discussing. The problem is that we live in a world where you aren’t allowed to say that you just don’t care about a certain issue without someone demonizing you for it. There’s lots of issues that other people are passionately involved in, which I just don’t care about. Nobody ever jumps my shit because of it, though. Because they don’t know I don’t care, because I don’t bother to tell them. Because I don’t care. On the other hand, if a person, unprompted, writes a five-hundred word essay about how much they don’t care about a subject? I think they actually do care, a little, and their concern isn’t exactly friendly. Put another way: somebody beats the shit out of you, and leaves you broken and bleeding in the street. While you’re lying there, some rando walks up and tells you, “I don’t care that you got your ass kicked,” then wanders off. Wouldn’t you think that guy’s just a _bit_ of an asshole? ---
**Author:** ![Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4af34b/32.png) [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeke_N.Destroi)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/135 "2016-08-14T18:26:21Z")
Actually, it isn’t that I don’t care. I do care and I feel for them. I’m just burned out about hearing about it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/136 "2016-08-14T20:13:40Z")
> [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](#): > > Actually, it isn’t that I don’t care. I do care and I feel for them. I’m just burned out about hearing about it. Why should we care, at least compared to people actually still suffering oppression, if you feel burned out about it? ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/137 "2016-08-14T20:17:22Z")
Sounds eerily similar to, “Garsh I don’t have anything against homosexuals, but sheesh why can’t they just keep quiet about it. I don’t want to hear about that!” Which is on the ragged fringes of, “I liked it better when they were all in the closet!” Of course you did, it was easier, for you. You didn’t have to face uncomfortable truths about the fairness of your society for those other than yourselves. Yeah, no one really believes this person is actually okay with homosexuals. At all. ---
**Author:** ![Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4af34b/32.png) [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeke_N.Destroi)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/138 "2016-08-14T20:30:03Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Why should we care, at least compared to people actually still suffering oppression, if you feel burned out about it? You shouldn’t. > [@elbows](#): > > Sounds eerily similar to, “Garsh I don’t have anything against homosexuals, but sheesh why can’t they just keep quiet about it. I don’t want to hear about that!” > > Which is on the ragged fringes of, “I liked it better when they were all in the closet!” Of course you did, it was easier, for you. You didn’t have to face uncomfortable truths about the fairness of your society for those other than yourselves. > > Yeah, no one really believes this person is actually okay with homosexuals. At all. Were you born this fucking stupid or did it take practice? Traumatic brain injury perhaps? Oh, I get it now. You figure that you have the right to hurl accusations of hatred and bigotry around because that’s what the cool kids do and you so desperately want to be one. If you charge your clients anything counsellor you are gouging them. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/139 "2016-08-14T21:34:45Z")
> [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](#): > > You shouldn’t. Okay. Then I think you should quit whining. It reflects only negatively on you. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/140 "2016-08-14T21:39:27Z")
Wolfpup, I think the problem you’re having is that something can be the opposite of something else while not being exclusively opposite. And being an opposite does not have to encompass the full set of things that are not-something-else. We simply do not use “opposite” the way you seem to be insisting it is used. Someone mentioned atheism, I think I that’s a great example. You meet someone who is a devout Christian married to someone who is a confident atheist. I think most of us would say they are opposites. But this example only works in one direction. The opposite of a devout Christian is an atheist, but the opposite of an atheist could be a devout Muslim. In America, you might assume Christian, but if you wanted to be precise, you’d have to say. Or you ask me if I know Terry Smith and I say “Terry Smith? The rich black woman?” and you say, “No, the opposite! This Terry Smith is a poor white man.” Non-rich is not the same as poor. Non-poor is not the same as rich. Non-black is not the same as white. Non-white is not the same as black. Non-woman is not the same as man. Non-man is not the same as woman. But I think the vast majority of English speakers would accept “Rich black woman” and “Poor white man” as opposites without ruling out a “middle-class Asian child.” So, “transgendered” and “non-transgendered” are sets. “Cisgendered” and “non-cisgendered” are sets. “Cisgendered” makes up a part of the “non-transgendered” set. “Transgendered” makes up a part of the “non-cisgendered” set. In the same way “rich black woman” would be accepted as the opposite of “poor white man,” “transgendered” and “cisgendered” could be viewed as opposites. And you could say that transgendered and cisgendered are as far apart as it’s possible to be, just as being a devout Christian and being an atheist are as far apart as it’s possible to be. That makes them opposites. But even so, you could also say that being agendered is just as far from cisgendered as transgendered is. And being agendered is just as far from transgendered as cisgendered is. Frankly, I think there are really good reasons for using language carefully right now. We don’t want to have to fight the gender battle a million times, and that’s what happens when you insist on a binary. If our language suggests there are only “transgendered” folk and “non-transgendered” which people will assume are the specific type of non-transgendered folk who we would otherwise call cisgendered, then we are leaving people out of the conversation. Which means someone like the OP turning around in ten years whining that no one ever told them it was possible to be agendered and this is a new thing and special snowflake yadda yadda how dare you be in my news feed. I’ve found that in disability work, one of the ways you get people to pay attention, to _see_ that there is a great deal of diversity in a population, is to use very precise language that forces them to figure out which term applies. Sorry, I must have taken a big hit of oxygen before I started typing to get so long-winded. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519.md?page=8)