# I Don't Get and Am Sick of Trans-Stuff **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2016, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519 "2016-08-12T02:10:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2016, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/162 "2016-08-15T23:49:11Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Imagine the courage to tell your parents that you are transgendered and want to be a girl. Imagine that. Imagine that you probably think, due to your upbringing that your parents will probably not disown you or call you a fucking freak. Imagine coming out to your parents and have them hug you, cry with you and tell you that you have their complete support and love. > > This is how society should, must, be approaching this. It’s not going away. It’s been here forever. And there’s nothing wrong with that. And I’m glad that it seems things are working well at home (I hadn’t heard from you in a while). ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/163 "2016-08-16T00:07:57Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > They dressed and presented male for 3 years, had a heart-to-heart with their boss telling them that they had to transition, gave them a plan of action and information, offered to bring in (at the employee’s own cost) experts on transgender workplace integration (I being one of them) to help HR and make the process as smooth as possible…and they were fired. So the person was a transgender man who presented as male for 3 years? Or after 3 years, the person didn’t want to keep presenting as a male when she was really a transgender woman? > [@](#): > > Focusing on the trees instead of the forest. They are driven there due to the problem of vastly disproportionate unemployment of transgender persons. I’ve worked as an advocate and outreach person for women and men working the streets of all gender identities and expressions; I know a bit about what both transgender and non-transgender women have to go through. Fair enough, just not sure that the transgender persons are any more degraded or demeaned than the gender-typical girls working in those places. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/164 "2016-08-16T00:14:02Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Maybe if we get to a point in society where genitals matter primarily for procreation and much less for recreation, things will change. I’m not holding my breath. I think we’re more likely to see progress in the opposite direction: genitals becoming primarily for recreation, while procreation is increasingly feasible between any combination of genetic donors, regardless of secondary equipment. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/165 "2016-08-16T00:27:04Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > It’s bigotry to imagine you can generalize over a whole group of people like that, like how it’s bigoted to imagine that all East Asians are good at math even if you can point to statistical surveys which show that East Asians overall do better on math tests. In your opinion, which is like a hill of ant turds compared to **Zeke’s** bigotry on display in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/166 "2016-08-16T00:27:46Z")
If gender identity is a purely a social construct, where does a trans-person’s gender identity come from? Serious question. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/167 "2016-08-16T00:40:45Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > {…} Would this make Jesus Christ \*trans-\*gender since by all canon accounts He died a virgin. This made sense to you when you typed it? Really? 😕 CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/168 "2016-08-16T00:50:48Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > This made sense to you when you typed it? Really? 😕 > > CMC fnord! Most of his/her posts are like this. Incomprehensible. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/169 "2016-08-16T01:40:31Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Fair enough, just not sure that the transgender persons are any more degraded or demeaned than the gender-typical girls working in those places. I am neither a sex worker nor transgender, so this is pure speculation on my part. But…, If I, as a woman, found myself in a position where I was \*driven \*to sex work, I would be, well, humiliated and devastated. That’s me, and I know some women apparently embrace it. i wouldn’t. It would be desperation. If I were driven to a position where I was a sex worker who had to market myself as …a niche market, shall we say? That seems like the humiliation may be worse. in other words, if I were selling my body by exploiting a mismatch between my sex and my gender, it seems like it would be worse. I would have the extra special burden of the pain of that mismatch. I would feel like a freak, primarily because of the limited market for my particular goods. Again. Pure speculation on my part, and I don’t pretend to have any actual knowledge of the reality of it. And I am sure it’s horrific for anyone who finds themselves in that position unwillingly. ETA: Think of the absolutely worse flaw you have, and now imagine that the only people who want to have sex with you are fetishists, or so you fear. Is that an added layer of pain for you? I am not saying transgenderism is a flaw, but I feel I would see it as such if that’s what i was “selling.” ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/170 "2016-08-16T02:33:38Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Since Jesus was born by immaculate conception, he almost certainly did not have a Y-chromosome, unless one admits that God has chromosomes (and thus God itself would be a biological being). Thus Jesus would have inherited only an X-chromosome from Mary, and thus is karyotype would be XO. Jesus therefore was an intersex woman with [Turner syndrome](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turner_syndrome), which explains her somewhat masculine appearance. > > (actually if I understand genetics enough, she would still be short about half her chromosomes because she’d have to get to 45 to be a Turner girl…unless a miracle occurred…oh, wait 🙂 ) Immaculate conception is the birth of Mary, meaning she was born without sin. It does not mean Jesus’s birth. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/171 "2016-08-16T03:00:35Z")
Point of order–it means Mary was _conceived_ without sin, not simply born without. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/172 "2016-08-16T03:11:17Z")
Point of order–sin’s a concept without merit, especially when dealing with conception between consenting adults, and it wouldn’t lead to the genetic condition **Una** describes anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/173 "2016-08-16T03:50:50Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > So the person was a transgender man who presented as male for 3 years? Or after 3 years, the person didn’t want to keep presenting as a male when she was really a transgender woman? They were a transgender woman who had not been brave enough to come out for 3 years, and actually lived fully female outside of work. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/174 "2016-08-16T03:52:38Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Point of order–sin’s a concept without merit, especially when dealing with conception between consenting adults, and it wouldn’t lead to the genetic condition **Una** describes anyway. Point of order: I clearly do not know enough about the Bible for my joke to have worked. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/175 "2016-08-16T03:56:12Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Point of order–sin’s a concept without merit, especially when dealing with conception between consenting adults, and it wouldn’t lead to the genetic condition **Una** describes anyway. Not entirely relevant to the vein of discussion though, which appeared to be a mostly tongue-in-cheek aside about Jesus. The bible never clearly establishes either Jesus’ sexuality or his gender identity. He did potentially (depending on who you ask) argue that if someone had trouble controlling their sexual passions they should become eunuchs; and that particular passage in the NT has been used at various points in history to justify the creation of eunuchs for various purposes. FWIW if historical Jesus existed (and despite being an atheist since the late 70s or so I suspect he or some approximation did), and he really palled around with a bunch of exclusively male proteges, I wouldn’t be entirely surprised if he was sexually active with other men given the mores and practices of the time and place. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/176 "2016-08-16T04:05:29Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Immaculate conception is the birth of Mary, meaning she was born without sin. It does not mean Jesus’s birth. Actually, it can. “THE” immaculate conception was of Mary, but Jesus’ own conception was also immaculate, i.e., without sin. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/177 "2016-08-16T04:07:54Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Not entirely relevant to the vein of discussion though, which appeared to be a mostly tongue-in-cheek aside about Jesus. I know. I thought Una’s joke was funny, and then the pedants set in, so I figured I’d out-pedantic them all. And so it will remain, unless you want to point out that “out-pedantic” isn’t a word. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/178 "2016-08-16T04:08:06Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > I am neither a sex worker nor transgender, so this is pure speculation on my part. But…, If I, as a woman, found myself in a position where I was \*driven \*to sex work, I would be, well, humiliated and devastated. That’s me, and I know some women apparently embrace it. i wouldn’t. It would be desperation. If I were driven to a position where I was a sex worker who had to market myself as …a niche market, shall we say? That seems like the humiliation may be worse. in other words, if I were selling my body by exploiting a mismatch between my sex and my gender, it seems like it would be worse. I would have the extra special burden of the pain of that mismatch. I would feel like a freak, primarily because of the limited market for my particular goods. I really hadn’t wanted to bring that up, but you’ve hit it on the head for many (but not all) cases of kathoey. Many are conventionally transgender, in that they have serious gender dysphoria and knowing that they are being fetishized over the fact that they have feminine appearance and demeanor, dress, breasts (most of the women I met had augmentation) and are feminine in every way - but have a penis - is awful for them. Some kathoey do consider themselves to be “third gender” or “other gender”, and don’t especially have a problem with being completely feminine, yet with a penis. The ones who are fetishized over their penis and who hate their male equipment suffer profoundly. Most are trying to save money for their surgery. Some are working this as a second job just to get money for their surgery. So there’s the most horrible part - every day they wake up with this body which to paraphrase transgender author Jan Morris “is like a creature from mythology,” and one which disgusts them. And during the day they live as just another woman, often a shopgirl but in a variety of jobs. Maybe they can forget a bit about their situation, and just live and work and play and enjoy life. And then the night comes, and they put on the bikini and 5-inch heels and go on stage in Nana Plaza, calling out to the drunk Japanese, Australians, Koreans (and this last weekend, one sober and saddened American t-girl) and flashing their breasts and penis. Calling out “Mister! Sir! Pick me!” All the while selling the very thing which causes them pain. What I witnessed Saturday was what I witness every time I go. Girls being pawed by drunks, having their breasts pinched, having a giant hairy hand down their bikini front feeling them up, meanwhile the eyes of the girls are…dead. Fierra was with me and was horrified when she noticed their eyes - some seemed on the verge of crying, others seemed like they had left their body and were just vacant. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/179 "2016-08-16T04:08:14Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Since Jesus was born by immaculate conception, he almost certainly did not have a Y-chromosome, unless one admits that God has chromosomes (and thus God itself would be a biological being). Thus Jesus would have inherited only an X-chromosome from Mary, and thus is karyotype would be XO. Jesus therefore was an intersex woman with [Turner syndrome](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turner_syndrome), which explains her somewhat masculine appearance. > > (actually if I understand genetics enough, she would still be short about half her chromosomes because she’d have to get to 45 to be a Turner girl…unless a miracle occurred…oh, wait 🙂 ) This is why I get all my scientific knowledge from [webcomics](http://nonadventures.com/2015/10/24/the-blast-supper/). ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/180 "2016-08-16T04:21:47Z")
> [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](#): > > Actually, it isn’t that I don’t care. I do care and I feel for them. I’m just burned out about hearing about it. Well, let me presume to take you at your word–that you do care about the issues facing trans people. You obviously aren’t super informed about these issues, which doesn’t make you a bad person, but you definitely should revisit that before making assertions (like they have the same rights as anyone else–which is not true, factually.) If you actually do care about trans issues, why do you think it bothers you to hear about them? To be frank, this would be similar to me sitting in my parlor c. 1965 and saying “you know, I’m all for the blacks having equal rights, but I’m tired of hearing about it and reading about it in the newspaper.” The thing is, things like that are said all the time in situations like this–and it is almost always because of some level of inherent bias or dislike for the group in question. Now, perhaps that individual in the 60s really was, at least philosophically, in favor of equal rights for blacks. But the tone and flippancy they exhibited (and these people aren’t a theoretical construct, people really spoke that way back then) suggested some level of bias against blacks. Not as bad as the people actively seeking to discriminate against them or commit acts of violence against them, but it was part of a broader systemic racism. Your words here kind of remind me of a conversation I had around the 2015 ESPYs–they awarded the Arthur Ashe Courage Award to Caitlyn Jenner. Someone mentioned it to me, and he said he thought the award should’ve gone to Lauren Hill (a teenage basketball player who died of brain cancer that year and got some publicity.) He basically argued that Caitlyn Jenner, “all he really did was become a woman” and he even said “I have no problem with what people like that do, but I don’t understand why it should be forced on me or why I should be forced to see it.” Now, in a lot of ways aside from the publicity she raised Caitlyn Jenner probably isn’t the ideal person to be a poster-girl for anything. She’s expressed some concerning opinions like support for Ted Cruz (who is extremely anti-LGBT–and also a man whose face is begging to be punched repeatedly), and has said that she suffers more flak for being a conservative Republican than for being trans, which I think minimizes and grossly misrepresents the average trans person’s experience (but maybe not Jenner’s–she lives in a cocoon of wealth and privilege), and she also is associated with the Kardashians which deserves opprobrium as well. But at least in the context of 2015, most of that stuff wasn’t front and center, what was front and center was Jenner publicly transitioned from being a famous Olympic (male) athlete to being a woman and despite her many failings otherwise it really did bring the community into a level of visibility, that at least in my lifetime, was unprecedented. As for the ESPYs–the complaint rang hollow because _Lauren Hill was awarded an ESPY_, so it’s not even a logical complaint. And finally, the part of this guy’s argument that mirrors your own is that somehow Jenner being in the public sphere, being given this award was “forcing something” on him. That’s not very different from you being upset because you “hear too much” about an issue. This issue, for people in this community, is literally about their freedom to _enjoy life and the pursuit of happiness_, unmolested from immoral discrimination and violence from their fellow citizens and from their government. The idea that this is somehow an inconvenience to you, sufficient to the level that you feel it’s okay to voice the objection, is absurd. If you really value the rights and well being of trans people you should really evaluate what lead you to think this was an acceptable expression. But moreover, I think you should question why you have this feeling at all and whether you aren’t actually bigoted against trans people–and if you are you should correct that character flaw. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519/181 "2016-08-16T04:46:46Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > This is why I get all my scientific knowledge from [webcomics](http://nonadventures.com/2015/10/24/the-blast-supper/). Ha! I probably saw that and stole the idea. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-and-am-sick-of-trans-stuff/762519.md?page=10)