# I don't get it: Why Stoics be hating on Epicurus/Epicurean philosophy?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-it-why-stoics-be-hating-on-epicurus-epicurean-philosophy/748237
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [March 7, 2016, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-it-why-stoics-be-hating-on-epicurus-epicurean-philosophy/748237 "2016-03-07T20:31:57Z")
**Posts on this page:** 9
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)
#### Post date: [March 10, 2016, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-it-why-stoics-be-hating-on-epicurus-epicurean-philosophy/748237/21 "2016-03-10T06:46:48Z")
> [@Trinopus](#):
>
> Beg your pardon; I had remembered that quote being in Paul’s epistles.
Actually, Paul says it too, in 1 Cor 15.
> [@Trinopus](#):
>
> Anyway, it definitely is a slam at Greek Epicureanism, from someone who knew Greek culture and values.
Hold on. Back in post #16, it was a “cartoonish attack on Epicureanism” by someone who appeared to have missed a large chunk of what Epicureanism is actually about. So, did he know Greek culture and values, or did he just mistake a caricature for the real thing?
FWIW, I don’t think it’s really about Epicureanism. Paul uses the expression in the context of a discussion about belief in the resurrection (“If the dead are not raised, ‘Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.’”) True, the Epicureans didn’t believe in an afterlife or any kind of resurrection, but equally the Stoics had little interest in an afterlife, and no belief in resurrection. So it seems to me that what Paul is discussing here is hedonism. I don’t think we can assume that Paul equated Epicureanism and hedonism (which, as you point out in post #16, would have been a mistake).
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [March 10, 2016, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-it-why-stoics-be-hating-on-epicurus-epicurean-philosophy/748237/22 "2016-03-10T11:54:13Z")
The only real time Epicureanism is mentioned in the bible, as far as I can tell, is in Acts 17, when Paul is in Athens, and some Stoic and Epicurean philosophers ask him about the nature of God. 1 Corinthians 15 condemns people who say that Jesus wasn’t raised from the dead and that people in general weren’t raised from the dead, which would include Epicureans, but also a lot of people.
If you’re looking for condemnations of the philosophy, look to Judaism and the Mishnah, where the term “Apikoros” is used to describe heretics and those who deny God or the afterlife. Apikoros, of course, means Epicurean.
And civic responsibility as such, the way you’re probably conceptualizing it, wasn’t really the same sort of thing in Greece and Rome as it is today.
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### Author:  [@moldmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moldmonkey)
#### Post date: [March 10, 2016, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-it-why-stoics-be-hating-on-epicurus-epicurean-philosophy/748237/23 "2016-03-10T15:20:22Z")
My understanding is that Epicurus warned against politics because of the corrupting influences of pwoer and prestige. The ideal was to withdraw from public life but one could have a public life if one wasn’t doing it for fame or power and was honest & prudent. There were prominent Epicureans as Captain Amazing’s quote about Atticus shows so it is certainly possible to do your civic duties and be a Epicurean.
Ken Mylot put Epicurus’s doctrines and quotes into plain English on Epicurus.info but the site appears to be dead. The best I could find is this PDF.
[http://media.library.ku.edu.tr/reserve/resfall07\_08/comm101\_dunkley/contemporaryrendering.pdf](http://media.library.ku.edu.tr/reserve/resfall07_08/comm101_dunkley/contemporaryrendering.pdf)
He puts the Epicurean Counsels as:
-Don’t fear god.
-Don’t worry about death.
-Don’t fear pain.
-Live simply.
-Pursue pleasure wisely.
-Make friends and be a good friend.
-Be nonest in your business and private life.
-Avoid fame and political ambition.
The modern sense of Epicurean doesn’t share much with the philosophy. It talks of pleasure but not in the sense of gluttony and more in the sense of avoidance of pain/anxiety by seeking out the good simple things in life and leading a honest & honorable life.
Here is a good site on the history of Epicureanism including the conflicts with Judaism and Christianity as well as some on the conflict with Stoicism.
> **[Epicurus and Epicurean Philosophy](https://epicurus.net/index.html)**
>
> Presenting the philosophy of Epicurus, including classical Epicurean texts, history, and information about books, web pages, and e-mail lists devoted to Epicureanism.
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### Author:  [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)
#### Post date: [March 10, 2016, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-it-why-stoics-be-hating-on-epicurus-epicurean-philosophy/748237/24 "2016-03-10T21:56:37Z")
> [@UDS](#):
>
> Actually, Paul says it too, in 1 Cor 15. . . .
Thank you; that’s what I had remembered.
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### Author:  [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)
#### Post date: [March 11, 2016, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-it-why-stoics-be-hating-on-epicurus-epicurean-philosophy/748237/25 "2016-03-11T01:42:29Z")
He still wasn’t referring to Epicureans, particularly.
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### Author:  [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)
#### Post date: [March 11, 2016, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-it-why-stoics-be-hating-on-epicurus-epicurean-philosophy/748237/26 "2016-03-11T01:45:02Z")
> [@No\_Wikipedia\_Cites](#):
>
> I don’t get it: Why Stoics be hating on Epicurus/Epicurean philosophy?
Yo. Haters gonna hate, bro.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [March 11, 2016, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-it-why-stoics-be-hating-on-epicurus-epicurean-philosophy/748237/27 "2016-03-11T02:08:57Z")
> [@No\_Wikipedia\_Cites](#):
>
> **I don’t get it: Why Stoics be hating on Epicurus/Epicurean philosophy?**
Well, it’s a lot like the East Coast-West Coast gangster-rap rivalry, you have to be in the culture to really understand.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [March 11, 2016, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-it-why-stoics-be-hating-on-epicurus-epicurean-philosophy/748237/28 "2016-03-11T02:23:24Z")
> [@Trinopus](#):
>
> If there is room for variability, then I get to call myself a “form of Epicurean.”
Perhaps you’re a Cultural Epicurean – you know, just celebrating the major holidays like Ataraxiaday and Equanimitasday.
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### Author:  [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)
#### Post date: [March 11, 2016, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-get-it-why-stoics-be-hating-on-epicurus-epicurean-philosophy/748237/29 "2016-03-11T02:51:10Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> Perhaps you’re a Cultural Epicurean – you know, just celebrating the major holidays like Ataraxiaday and Equanimitasday.
And declaring, “Yes, I’m really having fun” when in fact I’ve got a headache.
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