# I don't know Shi'ite about Islam **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 7, 2002, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-know-shiite-about-islam/112783 "2002-06-07T03:38:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Angua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@Angua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angua)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2003, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-know-shiite-about-islam/112783/21 "2003-09-24T12:52:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tamerlane \* > **Ah, interesting. I hadn’t known that, thanks for the correction :). I suspect that is Nizari-specific, but that is definitely something to check into and it does break my argument either way.** I forget why exactly Hasan is not an Imam in the Nizari Ismaili tradition, but I think it is to do with the naming of one’s successor on one’s deathbed, and that in Ismaili tradition, Imam 'Ali never named Hazrat Hasan as an Imam in the _spiritual_ sphere, but he was named as Imam 'Ali’s successor as Caliph. In Ismaili tradition, the Caliphate and Imamate were two _seperate_ entities, and it was co-incidental that both Imam 'Ali and Imam Hussein held both the Imamate and Caliphate. > [@](#): > > \*\*Sort of. The Imam is a spiritual leader as well as a political, but not a semi-divine one. Zayd himself disclaimed any divine status and the the title of Imam can be claimed by any legitimate descendant of Fatima and Ali that proves their worth and they can lose the status of Imam by failing or transgressing in any of a number of ways ( like being defeated by a rival claimant - proof of God’s disfavor ). i.e. it is theoretically an earned position as much as a hereditary one ( though frequently it has been more dynastic of course ). > > - Tamerlane \*\* Interesting. I really really must make more time for further study of that time period, and of the histories and traditions of the different Shia sects. ---
**Author:** ![WeRSauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f19dbf/32.png) [@WeRSauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WeRSauron)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2003, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-know-shiite-about-islam/112783/22 "2003-09-24T16:06:27Z")
In current Nizari Qasim-Shahi Ismailism, there are two types of imams: mustaqar (permanent) and mustawda (temporary). The latter is a repository, if you will, holding the imamate temporarily until the mustaqar imam could take over. [From here](http://globale.net/~heritage/Source/myflag/16appendixc.html): “Likewise, Ali bin Abu Talib held two offices, i.e., mustaqar and mustawda. His office of mustaqar remained with his son Hussain and his progeny for ever, while the office of mustawda was governed temporarily by his another son Hasan, who in no circumstances could transfer his office to his own posterity.” In Ismailism, the concept of “nass” or appointment is extremely important. This is one major reason why Ismail, the son of Ja’far as-Sadiq, was accepted as the next imam rather than his brother, Musa. Another part of this concept of “nass” is that the imamate must be passed downward, and cannot be passed horizontally (to a brother or cousin). This is why Musa could not be the imam after Ismail (who had his father’s “nass”), and why Hussein, and not Hasan, is accepted as the second imam by many Ismailis. So, when Ali was martyred, the imamate was held temporarily by Hassan (a mustawda imam), before it was assumed by Hussein (the mustaqar imam). A great source of information )besides the Internet) on Ismailism is Farhad Daftary’s _The Isma’ilis: Their history and doctrines_. Cambridge, England: Cambridge University Press, 1995. WRS ---
**Author:** ![Angua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@Angua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angua)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2003, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-know-shiite-about-islam/112783/23 "2003-09-24T16:16:28Z")
Hmm… In current Ismaili tradition, the distinction between Shah and Pir is irrelevant, since there is no Ismaili state and hence, there is no need for the “secular” imam. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by WeRSauron \* > \*\* > A great source of information )besides the Internet) on Ismailism is Farhad Daftary’s _The Isma’ilis: Their history and doctrines_. Cambridge, England: Cambridge University Press, 1995. > > \*\* Don’t believe everything you read on the internet about Ismailism - there are a lot of people who seek to blacken the philosophy of Ismailism, and state that Ismailis are not true Muslims because they have evolved with the times, do not require women to be in purdah, or be hijabi, and give women absolute equal rights to men. ---
**Author:** ![WeRSauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f19dbf/32.png) [@WeRSauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WeRSauron)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2003, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-know-shiite-about-islam/112783/24 "2003-09-24T18:55:11Z")
The Hazir Imam, Shah Karim Al-Husseini Aga Khan IV, is fond os reminding people - Muslims and non-Muslims alike - that there is no one Islam. The Muslim world is full of diversity. There is no one way to practice Islam - the various schools of fiqh and extant movements bears witness of this. Plus, many arguments made by other Muslims regarding the non-Muslimhood of Nizari Qasim-Shahi Ismailis can be refuted - but the other Muslims still won’t buy the answer. From an academic perspective, Ismailism is very much a movement/sect/denomination of Islam. It is not like the Druze, which have evolved into their own religion, or the Baha’i, who have consciously split from Islam. The best sources are those by Ismailis, of course. And there are many such resources online. WRS ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2003, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-know-shiite-about-islam/112783/25 "2003-09-24T21:35:08Z")
Oh, Daftary is not bad. As you can see from this brief bio, he is definitely not anti-Isma’ili ( if anything he has been on occasion accused of the reverse ): [http://www.iis.ac.uk/research/academic\_publications/daftary.htm](http://www.iis.ac.uk/research/academic_publications/daftary.htm) I have his A Short History of the Ismailis, though it is currently packed away somewhere. Bernard Lewis’ classic work on the medieval Nizaris is also fairly even-handed, though quite a bit more brief. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Angua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@Angua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angua)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2003, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-know-shiite-about-islam/112783/26 "2003-09-25T09:42:33Z")
Sorry, I wasn’t slating Daftary, on the contrary, I find his work to be rather even handed. What I was trying to say is essentially what **WeRSauron** was saying in his first two paragraphs, and that there are some resources on the internet which will give an exceedingly biased anti-Ismaili and indeed anti-Islamic picture, and so need to be taken with a pinch of salt. ---
**Author:** ![WeRSauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f19dbf/32.png) [@WeRSauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WeRSauron)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-know-shiite-about-islam/112783/27 "2003-09-26T02:05:45Z")
Okay, here’s the hadith: > [@](#): > > “Ibn Umar (Allah be pleased with him) reported the Prophet (Peace be upon him) as saying: “Oh Allah, bless us in our Syria; O Allah, bless us in our Yemen.” Those present said: “And in our Najd, O Messenger of Allah!” But he said, “O Allah, bless us in our Syria; O Allah, bless us in our Yemen.” Those present said, “And in our Najd, O Messenger of Allah!” Ibn Umar said that he thought that he said on the third occasion: “Earthquakes and fitnah are there, and there shall arise the horn of ash-Shaytaan.” [Sahih al-Bukhari].” This is from [this site](http://www.ummah.net/Al_adaab/salafi2.html), which is quite anti-Wahhabi. WRS ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-know-shiite-about-islam/112783/28 "2003-09-26T10:50:41Z")
Speaking of Isma‘ilism, I just wanted to throw in my theory about the Assassins. It’s conventional wisdom that they were named for _hashish_ (linguistic note: _hashîsh_ is simply the Arabic word for ‘grass’. Calling _Cannabis sativa_ “grass” is not just modern slang. The Arabs were way ahead of us on this). There have been ridiculous stories concocted about the hitmen of the Assassins being doped with hashish to delude their minds into committing those foul political murders. Back in the days of _Reefer Madness_, when Harry Anslinger was spreading racist propaganda that marijuana would turn white kids into murdering maniacs, like those degenerate “Negroes” and Mexicans who used “marihuana,” people who knew nothing about its effects let their imaginations run riot and thought the Isma‘ili Assassins carried out their murders under the influence of hashish. Preposterous. Pot and hash mellow you out, as anybody with a bit of common sense knows. So the theory was modified to guess that Hasan-i Sabbâh, the _Shaykh al-Jabal_ (Old Man of the Mountain), used hashish to persuade his young men that they had been temporarily admitted to Paradise, and the only way to get back there was to follow his nefarious instructions. This version is more nuanced and clever, but still wrong. In the Middle East, _hashshâshî_ is a derogatory word often used in jest to call a person foolish or delusional. Like modern Ebonic slang would say “You trippin’, man.” When a religious sect radically deviates from the norm of society, you can be sure that the majority people will cast disrepute on it with any derogatory label they can get to stick. Often, secretive heretical sects are accused of sexual perversion or debauchery. In the case of the Nizaris, they were dismissed as _“hashshâshîyîn”_ as a slang term of disrespect. _This does not mean that hashish actually formed part of their religion or their undercover blackops tactics._ The real source of the word _Assassin_: The Nizari Isma‘ili order was hierarchically structured. A new initiate would rise through the ranks as he rendered more service to the order, learned its doctrines, and proved himself worthy. Since the Seveners structured everything according to the number seven, there were seven grades or degrees of the Nizari order. The top level of the hierarchy was named _assâs_, which means ‘builder of the foundation’. The high-ranking elite of the order were the foundation, the basis for the whole structure. The _ **assâsîn** _ were the elite of the Nizaris. The non-Isma‘ilis mocked them by making a derogatory pun on the word _assâsîn_ and calling them _hashshâshîn_ instead. It was the French Orientalist Sylvestre de Sacy in the late 18th century who seriously suggested that the Nizaris used hashish to turn themselves into ravening murderers. He did not have a good understanding of them. The Nizaris at the time of Hasan-i Sabbâh were a serious, dedicated secret society-cum-fighting force. They did not play around with silly shit like hashish. They were disciplined and highly trained. (Later, after the death of Hasan-i Sabbâh, his son and successor Hasan II broke the fast of Ramadan at high noon by drinking wine, and proclaimed the Qiyâmah, the “Great Resurrection,” in which the former rules of Islam were abrogated, and the whole thing took a radically different turn. But Hasan-i Sabbâh himself was not a druggie.) ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-know-shiite-about-islam/112783/29 "2003-09-26T15:03:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jomo Mojo \* > > In the Middle East, _hashshâshî_ is a derogatory word often used in jest to call a person foolish or delusional. Like modern Ebonic slang would say “You trippin’, man.” When a religious sect radically deviates from the norm of society, you can be sure that the majority people will cast disrepute on it with any derogatory label they can get to stick. Often, secretive heretical sects are accused of sexual perversion or debauchery. In the case of the Nizaris, they were dismissed as _“hashshâshîyîn”_ as a slang term of disrespect. _This does not mean that hashish actually formed part of their religion or their undercover blackops tactics._ Excellent point and one Bernard Lewis makes clear in his book, especially insomuch as the use of the term _hashishahiyin_ for the Nizaris seems to have been specifically limited to Syria and its environs ( where the crusaders picked up ), not any of the eastern territories ( like those around Alamut ) where the Nizaris were strongly established. In otherwords it was a local epithet rather than a universal identifier. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Spiff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiff/32/9852_2.png) [@Spiff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiff)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-know-shiite-about-islam/112783/30 "2003-09-26T17:11:58Z")
Are “Shi’ite” and “Shi’a” referring to the same thing? And if they both refer to the same thing, are the different spellings just a variation in the transliteration from arabic? Or is Shi’ite just the adjective form of Shi’a? ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-know-shiite-about-islam/112783/31 "2003-09-26T21:39:52Z")
Nothing to add. I just wanted to say that this has to be one of the funniest GQ thread titles, ever! Please return to your regularly scheduled topic. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-know-shiite-about-islam/112783/32 "2003-09-26T22:59:55Z")
Yes. Shî‘ah is the name of the group. Shî‘i(te) is an individual of that group, or the adjective applying to it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-know-shiite-about-islam/112783.md?page=1)