# I don't know what it is...... but it is not "Democracy" any more
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-know-what-it-is-but-it-is-not-democracy-any-more/595382
**Category:** Politics & Elections
**Created:** [September 6, 2011, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-know-what-it-is-but-it-is-not-democracy-any-more/595382 "2011-09-06T13:55:17Z")
**Posts on this page:** 19
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)
#### Post date: [September 7, 2011, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-know-what-it-is-but-it-is-not-democracy-any-more/595382/41 "2011-09-07T01:50:54Z")
> [@Clu-Me-In](#):
>
> With what is going on in American politics these days with Super PAC’s, we really cannot call what we have DEMOCRACY anymore since in essence a select group of big money folks can gather together and buy themselves a President.
>
> [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44402386/ns/politics-decision\_2012](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44402386/ns/politics-decision_2012)
> And, it’s all legal since the Supreme Court does OK it. I’d say it’s a pretty good reason many Americans have disengaged from the political process and don’t believe their vote matters.
Yes because citizens should’t be allowed to use their money as they see fit. :rolleyes:
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### Author:  [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)
#### Post date: [September 7, 2011, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-know-what-it-is-but-it-is-not-democracy-any-more/595382/42 "2011-09-07T01:58:19Z")
> [@Frylock](#):
>
> I think the legal status of each should be identical vis-a-vis political campaigning.
>
> I also think there should be an absolute limit to how much may be spent, total, by all entities, on behalf of a candidate in any particular election cycle. And the limit should be pretty low. 😉 Dreaming the impossible dream…
>
> \*What I actually think is that the limit should be zero, and all the money involved should be public funds, and it should be a very small amount. Like, every candidate gets a website and a 300,000 word limit or something. And that’s it. Any other advocacy for a candidate would be illegal.
>
> I know, I know!
But what about issues? What if I want to contribute to AIPAC or NARAL or the AFL-CIO?
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### Author:  [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)
#### Post date: [September 7, 2011, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-know-what-it-is-but-it-is-not-democracy-any-more/595382/43 "2011-09-07T02:01:31Z")
It should be noted too the Court decision enables not just corporations but also labour unions.
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### Author:  [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)
#### Post date: [September 7, 2011, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-know-what-it-is-but-it-is-not-democracy-any-more/595382/44 "2011-09-07T02:01:34Z")
> [@Ravenman](#):
>
> In relation to my earlier question, does this mean that you already think that most (perhaps all) politician who are currently in office are already in the pocket of corporations and big business?
If you expand the definition to include other monied interests (unions and certain individuals) then absolutely yes. It’s a natural outgrowth of the “money=speech” decisions.
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [September 7, 2011, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-know-what-it-is-but-it-is-not-democracy-any-more/595382/45 "2011-09-07T05:42:21Z")
> [@Frylock](#):
>
> “Existence independence of shareholders” =/= “personhood”, not by a long shot.
Yes, that’s exactly what personhood is. A person is an independent entity that can enter into contract, can sue, and be sued. If people are making arguments out of ignorance, then the onus on them is to correct their ignorance.
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [September 7, 2011, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-know-what-it-is-but-it-is-not-democracy-any-more/595382/46 "2011-09-07T05:52:04Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#):
>
> Yes because citizens should’t be allowed to use their money as they see fit. :rolleyes:
Oh? Do you think that open bribery should be allowed? If yes then you are in favor of corruption; if no, then you already agree that citizens shouldn’t be allowed to spend money as they want and we are just arguing over what restrictions to have.
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#):
>
> It should be noted too the Court decision enables not just corporations but also labour unions.
Which barely exist, so it doesn’t matter.
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### Author:  [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)
#### Post date: [September 7, 2011, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-know-what-it-is-but-it-is-not-democracy-any-more/595382/47 "2011-09-07T05:59:50Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#):
>
> Oh? Do you think that open bribery should be allowed? If yes then you are in favor of corruption; if no, then you already agree that citizens shouldn’t be allowed to spend money as they want and we are just arguing over what restrictions to have.
Obviously there are restrictions on things like that, I was using some rhetoric and hyperbole here.
> [@](#):
>
> Which barely exist, so it doesn’t matter.
From what we have seen, the unions in the public sector at least have a lot of fight and strength in them,
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [September 7, 2011, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-know-what-it-is-but-it-is-not-democracy-any-more/595382/48 "2011-09-07T06:29:44Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#):
>
> Obviously there are restrictions on things like that, I was using some rhetoric and hyperbole here.
Was that a goalpost I saw moving? There’s nothing obvious about it; if you are defending the legality of such democracy-corrupting spending with “citizens should be allowed to use their money as they see fit”, then the same argument supports open bribery.
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### Author:  [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)
#### Post date: [September 7, 2011, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-know-what-it-is-but-it-is-not-democracy-any-more/595382/49 "2011-09-07T06:35:25Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#):
>
> Was that a goalpost I saw moving? There’s nothing obvious about it; if you are defending the legality of such democracy-corrupting spending with “citizens should be allowed to use their money as they see fit”, then the same argument supports open bribery.
Alright, I meant citizens should be allowed to spend money freely outside of extreme and obvious cases (such as bribery).
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### Author:  [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)
#### Post date: [September 7, 2011, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-know-what-it-is-but-it-is-not-democracy-any-more/595382/50 "2011-09-07T16:06:56Z")
OK, people.
Should it be legal for groups to advocate for issues? Like, if the NRA is against gun control, should they be able to try to convince more people to be against gun control? Should they be able to advocate that people should vote for candidates that support their agenda, and vote against candidates that are against their agenda?
Would anyone here seriously say, “no, groups should not be allowed to advocate for issues, or urge people to vote for candidates”, then what the fuck was the first amendment supposed to be for? "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. "
If people should not be allowed to assemble and petition the Government for a redress of grievances, I’d say that’s the end of democracy.
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### Author:  [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)
#### Post date: [September 7, 2011, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-know-what-it-is-but-it-is-not-democracy-any-more/595382/51 "2011-09-07T17:57:34Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#):
>
> Alright, I meant citizens should be allowed to spend money freely outside of extreme and obvious cases (such as bribery).
Obvious? Obvious to whom? Would you take my word for it?
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### Author:  [@Clu-Me-In](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clu-Me-In)
#### Post date: [September 7, 2011, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-know-what-it-is-but-it-is-not-democracy-any-more/595382/52 "2011-09-07T18:11:41Z")
Wow!!! I guess that’s what the Super PAC’s do during elections huh and why they need $55 Million **[to silence opponents right](http://www.businessinsider.com/pro-rick-perry-super-pac-has-a-55-million-plan-to-crush-gop-rivals-2011-9)**? I wonder why the Congress came to debate [**McCain-Feingold**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipartisan_Campaign_Reform_Act) and had Dubya sign it into law… it couldn’t be that they were concerned about all of that free-speech first amendment thing huh?
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### Author:  [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)
#### Post date: [September 7, 2011, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-know-what-it-is-but-it-is-not-democracy-any-more/595382/53 "2011-09-07T18:16:30Z")
> [@Clu-Me-In](#):
>
> Wow!!! I guess that’s what the Super PAC’s do during elections huh and why they need $55 Million **[to silence opponents right](http://www.businessinsider.com/pro-rick-perry-super-pac-has-a-55-million-plan-to-crush-gop-rivals-2011-9)**?
Man, I don’t know what article you’re reading, but “defeating one’s opponents in a contested election” does not qualify as “silencing opponents’ rights.”
I should also state outright that I do not support Super PACs, but I do not see them as being responsible for imagined ills like ending democracy, promoting alien invasion, or being the real cause of cancer.
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### Author:  [@Clu-Me-In](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clu-Me-In)
#### Post date: [September 7, 2011, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-know-what-it-is-but-it-is-not-democracy-any-more/595382/54 "2011-09-07T18:32:27Z")
> [@Ravenman](#):
>
> I should also state outright that I do not support Super PACs, but I do not see them as being responsible for imagined ills like ending democracy, promoting alien invasion, or being the real cause of cancer.
You don’t support Super PACs? Me too… I guess you must have a reason for not supporting somebody’s First Amendment rights huh? Mind sharing?
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### Author:  [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)
#### Post date: [September 7, 2011, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-know-what-it-is-but-it-is-not-democracy-any-more/595382/55 "2011-09-07T18:47:36Z")
> [@Lemur866](#):
>
> OK, people.
>
> Should it be legal for groups to advocate for issues? Like, if the NRA is against gun control, should they be able to try to convince more people to be against gun control? Should they be able to advocate that people should vote for candidates that support their agenda, and vote against candidates that are against their agenda?
>
> Would anyone here seriously say, “no, groups should not be allowed to advocate for issues, or urge people to vote for candidates”, then what the fuck was the first amendment supposed to be for? "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. "
>
> If people should not be allowed to assemble and petition the Government for a redress of grievances, I’d say that’s the end of democracy.
Here you keep using the word “groups”, but is a corporation a group? I keep seeing corp.s referred to as a person, not as a group of people.
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### Author:  [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)
#### Post date: [September 7, 2011, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-know-what-it-is-but-it-is-not-democracy-any-more/595382/56 "2011-09-07T20:11:22Z")
> [@Clu-Me-In](#):
>
> You don’t support Super PACs? Me too… I guess you must have a reason for not supporting somebody’s First Amendment rights huh? Mind sharing?
Perhaps in your next post you can better inform us of how Super PACs are responsible for global warming, the increase in autism, and milk that seems to go bad right just a couple days after I bring it home from the store.
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### Author:  [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)
#### Post date: [September 9, 2011, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-know-what-it-is-but-it-is-not-democracy-any-more/595382/58 "2011-09-09T02:03:54Z")
> [@Clu-Me-In](#):
>
> With what is going on in American politics these days with Super PAC’s, we really cannot call what we have DEMOCRACY anymore since in essence a select group of big money folks can gather together and buy themselves a President.
>
> [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44402386/ns/politics-decision\_2012](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44402386/ns/politics-decision_2012)
> And, it’s all legal since the Supreme Court does OK it. I’d say it’s a pretty good reason many Americans have disengaged from the political process and don’t believe their vote matters.
[http://www.progressiveliving.org/plutocracy\_defined.htm](http://www.progressiveliving.org/plutocracy_defined.htm) It is well on its way to becoming a Plutocracy.
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### Author:  [@horhay\_achoa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/horhay_achoa)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2011, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-know-what-it-is-but-it-is-not-democracy-any-more/595382/59 "2011-09-21T16:58:21Z")
> [@Lemur866](#):
>
> Should it be legal for groups to advocate for issues? Like, if the NRA is against gun control, should they be able to try to convince more people to be against gun control? Should they be able to advocate that people should vote for candidates that support their agenda, and vote against candidates that are against their agenda?
Yes, groups should be able to advocate for issues. And they should be allowed to try to get more people to join their group and fight for their cause. However, they should not be allowed to donate money directly to PACs, or campaigns. If the NRA thinks that its cause is supported best by candidate A, it should communicate to its members that they should vote and contribute to candidate A, but the NRA as a group should not be allowed to campaign for candidate A. Similarly, a union should not be allowed to contribute directly to a candidate, but it can tell its members that they should contribute to a certain candidate. In other words, make the individuals in any particular group take the initiative in actually donating their money to a candidate.
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### Author:  [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2011, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-know-what-it-is-but-it-is-not-democracy-any-more/595382/60 "2011-09-23T23:20:32Z")
> [@](#):
>
> I don’t know what it is… but it is not “Democracy” any more
Never was and never will be. What we got today is 50 confederate states stealing investors from each other, crippling their infrastructures and needlessly confining most of our population for the crime of not being their jailors.
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Not even Texas can take on China. Let’s get together.
Aloha
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