# I Don't Like Being Called Irrational. \[Just because I do not accept the Theory of Evolution.\]
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-like-being-called-irrational-just-because-i-do-not-accept-the-theory-of-evolution/658755
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [May 19, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-like-being-called-irrational-just-because-i-do-not-accept-the-theory-of-evolution/658755 "2013-05-19T19:55:03Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 6
### Author:  [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)
#### Post date: [May 23, 2013, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-like-being-called-irrational-just-because-i-do-not-accept-the-theory-of-evolution/658755/101 "2013-05-23T21:52:26Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#):
>
> I’m not familiar with him, but from the looks of things [Dr Michael Denton](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Denton) is a critic of the standard view of evolution but not a creationist, whose arguments have been hijacked by the creationists for the purpose of supporting their religious fantasies.
I heard an interview with him a few months ago. He thinks that the reason that water molecules have a high latent heat of evaporation is that they were designed that way from the outset so that billions of years later, a certain species of ape who was adapting to a life out of the trees, could get rid of its excess heat while running down prey.
I couldn’t help thinking of Douglas Adams’ story about the suddenly-sentient puddle who is amazed that the hole he occupies fits him so exactly, that it must have been designed that way by someone who made it just for him.
---
### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [May 23, 2013, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-like-being-called-irrational-just-because-i-do-not-accept-the-theory-of-evolution/658755/102 "2013-05-23T22:09:54Z")
> [@CurtC](#):
>
> I heard an interview with him a few months ago. He thinks that the reason that water molecules have a high latent heat of evaporation is that they were designed that way from the outset so that billions of years later, a certain species of ape who was adapting to a life out of the trees, could get rid of its excess heat while running down prey.
>
> I couldn’t help thinking of Douglas Adams’ story about the suddenly-sentient puddle who is amazed that the hole he occupies fits him so exactly, that it must have been designed that way by someone who made it just for him.
Yeah, I don’t buy it either. Did they mention any exclamation as to why he believes that?
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### Author:  [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)
#### Post date: [May 23, 2013, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-like-being-called-irrational-just-because-i-do-not-accept-the-theory-of-evolution/658755/103 "2013-05-23T22:13:25Z")
Why is there such scientific consensus? Read the article to discover that any scientists with valid scientific differences with the juggernaut scientific community are blacklisted and cannot find work, so they conform, the bunch of cowards.
Yeah, that’s science for ya!:smack:
Nice source! I’m so conflicted now!:rolleyes:
---
### Author:  [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)
#### Post date: [May 23, 2013, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-like-being-called-irrational-just-because-i-do-not-accept-the-theory-of-evolution/658755/104 "2013-05-23T22:48:09Z")
> [@Truman\_Burbank](#):
>
> Why is there such scientific consensus? Read the article to discover that any scientists with valid scientific differences with the juggernaut scientific community are blacklisted and cannot find work, so they conform, the bunch of cowards.
> Yeah, that’s science for ya!:smack:
> Nice source! I’m so conflicted now!:rolleyes:
They can find work in plenty of creationist institutes. And it is not like their papers are getting rejected - studies have indicated that they do not submit many papers. Now to have a paper with a chance they have to get some data, not just speculation, so it is not surprising that they don’t bother. Have any counterexamples?
Behe at least knows how to work in science. His ID stuff is wrong but not moronic. But Behe accepts evolution, so he probably doesn’t count.
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### Author:  [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)
#### Post date: [May 23, 2013, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-like-being-called-irrational-just-because-i-do-not-accept-the-theory-of-evolution/658755/105 "2013-05-23T23:20:33Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#):
>
> :dubious: What’s your point?
My point, **Der Trihs** , was that some theories really do sound like they were “dreamed up after being drunk all night.”
It was a joke. Not meant in any way to imply that I disagree with you or Azimov.
Has levity left the building along with Elvis?..
---
### Author:  [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)
#### Post date: [May 23, 2013, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-like-being-called-irrational-just-because-i-do-not-accept-the-theory-of-evolution/658755/106 "2013-05-23T23:35:04Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> This has got absolutely nothing to do with whether _I_ recognize it as a theory. _You_ brought forward those links as a counter to the Asimov quote about how creationists don’t know what a scientific theory is…and it seems that you don’t, either.
See above.
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### Author:  [@BunnyTVS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BunnyTVS)
#### Post date: [May 23, 2013, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-like-being-called-irrational-just-because-i-do-not-accept-the-theory-of-evolution/658755/107 "2013-05-23T23:45:40Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#):
>
> Ummm… [Bubble Universes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse). :dubious:
>
> I want what Brian Green’s been smokin’… 😃
> [@QuickSilver](#):
>
> See above.
Take a look at your own link. I see no mention that bubble universes are a scientific theory.
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### Author:  [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)
#### Post date: [May 23, 2013, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-like-being-called-irrational-just-because-i-do-not-accept-the-theory-of-evolution/658755/108 "2013-05-23T23:53:21Z")
> [@BunnyTVS](#):
>
> Take a look at your own link. I see no mention that bubble universes are a scientific theory.
I realize I’m playing fast and loose with the term “theory” as it is traditionally defined and generally accepted. It was all in the failed attempt at humour.
I was wrong. I made a grievous error. I appologize unreservedly.
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### Author:  [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)
#### Post date: [May 24, 2013, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-like-being-called-irrational-just-because-i-do-not-accept-the-theory-of-evolution/658755/109 "2013-05-24T00:15:52Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#):
>
> I realize I’m playing fast and loose with the term “theory” as it is traditionally defined and generally accepted.
Since we were discussing the misuse of the traditionally defined use of scientific theory it was inappropriate for this thread. It is an example of the misuse that the OP is guilty of and, as such, was sure to be addressed by the participants.
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### Author:  [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)
#### Post date: [May 24, 2013, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-like-being-called-irrational-just-because-i-do-not-accept-the-theory-of-evolution/658755/110 "2013-05-24T18:15:26Z")
> [@XT](#):
>
> You guys know that, like Elvis, the OP is no longer in the building…right? 😉
I guess this means we’ll never get the answer to the real Big Question[sup]TM[/sup] raised by the OP.
Who is David?
Enjoy,
Steven
---
### Author:  [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)
#### Post date: [May 24, 2013, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-like-being-called-irrational-just-because-i-do-not-accept-the-theory-of-evolution/658755/111 "2013-05-24T18:45:11Z")
> [@Mtgman](#):
>
> I guess this means we’ll never get the answer to the real Big Question[sup]TM[/sup] raised by the OP.
>
> Who is David?
>
> Enjoy,
> Steven
Clearly it was an allusion to David and Goliath, portraying the valiant struggle against the mammoth forces aligned in support of creationism.
(Completely unrelated, but I was very amused by this article that relied on the story of David and Goliath, but got confused about which one was the giant:
[http://www.rantsports.com/nhl/2013/05/05/can-goliath-strike-another-blow-to-the-pittsburgh-penguins/](http://www.rantsports.com/nhl/2013/05/05/can-goliath-strike-another-blow-to-the-pittsburgh-penguins/))
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### Author:  [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)
#### Post date: [May 24, 2013, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-like-being-called-irrational-just-because-i-do-not-accept-the-theory-of-evolution/658755/112 "2013-05-24T21:15:25Z")
> [@Mtgman](#):
>
> I guess this means we’ll never get the answer to the real Big Question[sup]TM[/sup] raised by the OP.
>
> Who is David?
It’s in the Bible. 1 Samuel 17. **David** ’s the dude that killed the OP’s father. Hence the OP’s (dare I say it?) _butthurtedness_ about him.
[spoiler]Unfortunately for the OP, just like **Luke** and **Vader** in Star Wars, it’s going to be revealed in the third movie that _ **David** _ is the OP’s father, and that the ‘ **David** vs. **Goliath** ’ myth is just that. A myth concocted, for political reasons, to hide the truth. Sorry OP. Learn to live with it, like **Luke** did.
[Cite:](http://starwars.com/watch/episode_5_i_am_your_father.html)
**David** : I am your father, **Atarii**.
**Atarii** : No. NO! That’s not true. That’s _impossible!_
**David** : Search your feelings, you _know_ it to be true.
**Atarii** : Nooooo! No…
[as an aside, in movie 4 or 6, **David** will be doing [this,](http://nooooooooooooooo.com/) but that will be before the OP is born. These movies are _sooooooo_ predictable.]
[/spoiler]
ETA: Shit. Ninja’d by **Hentor**. :mad:
---
### Author:  [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)
#### Post date: [May 25, 2013, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-like-being-called-irrational-just-because-i-do-not-accept-the-theory-of-evolution/658755/113 "2013-05-25T01:45:55Z")
> [@Truman\_Burbank](#):
>
> Why is there such scientific consensus? Read the article to discover that any scientists with valid scientific differences with the juggernaut scientific community are blacklisted and cannot find work, so they conform, the bunch of cowards.
> Yeah, that’s science for ya!:smack:
> Nice source! I’m so conflicted now!:rolleyes:
If a scientist were to come up with a theory that explains the origin of the species \*better \*than evolution, he’d be the most famous scientist in the world. Why would he be blacklisted? He’d be be the toast of the scientific community.
The problem, of course, is that the theory of evolution \*is \*the best theory we’ve got.
There’s no massive conspiracy. Why would there be one?
---
### Author:  [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)
#### Post date: [May 25, 2013, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-like-being-called-irrational-just-because-i-do-not-accept-the-theory-of-evolution/658755/114 "2013-05-25T02:19:02Z")
Denton has been found to be wrong, his ideas do not have much support, and that was apparent many years ago.
> **[Critique of Michael Denton's "Evolution: A Theory in Crisis"](http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/denton.html)**
>
> Denton's anti-evolution book Evolution: A Theory in Crisis is based on a poor understanding of the evidence as this review shows.
> [@](#):
>
> We have seen that Denton’s assault on evolutionary pattern has failed. The “problems” he points out with the evolutionary interpretation of the data have turned out to not be problems at all. It has additionally been shown - thanks to transitional forms, true homologous structures, and the various novelties that appear in embryological and molecular realms not subject to selective pressures - that deriving a typological pattern from the data is itself a problematic undertaking.
> IV. Conclusion
>
> Evolutionary pattern and process stands vindicated from Denton’s assault. It does not win out by default, being implausible but socially established and lacking a superior alternative - rather, it is a plausible process with no contenders, and is backed up strongly by empirical evidence. There is debate within evolutionist circles about systematics, tempo, and the roles of genetic drift and preadaptation, and still plenty of work to be done fleshing out stories about the development of certain structures, but none of this in any way puts macroevolution and the pattern of non-teleological common descent in a crisis situation. Rather, they are indicators that evolutionary biology is still a field which offers work to be done, just like any other field.
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### Author:  [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)
#### Post date: [May 26, 2013, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-like-being-called-irrational-just-because-i-do-not-accept-the-theory-of-evolution/658755/115 "2013-05-26T03:01:29Z")
> [@Atarii](#):
>
> I have no doubt that evolution is false, because the evidence is weak or contradicts known laws.
There is a big step from Agnosticism to Atheism.
And the same step from knowing that Evolution is a weakly-supported religous belief to knowing that Evolution is false.
You seem to have made that step. Which I respect. I’m outside this argument. But you’ve taken the argument inside their religious beliefs and called out their religious beliefs as irrational. With respect, that’s never going to work.
So, here are some suggestions about how you could handle it.
1. I’m insulted. I respect your firmly held beliefs, and ask you to respect mine.
2. I’m insulted. You’ve got your religous beliefs, and when you’ve studied up on comparitive religon, HPS, or anthropology, get back to me about that. Until then, SFU.
3. You’re ridiculous. You all agree with each other, and have no idea how funny that looks. You’re “science” is like Mormon theology, but you take it seriously, don’t you?. You know, most of them don’t?
Take your pick. I reckon any of those suggestions is likely to be more fun and educational than throwing rocks at a hornets nest, but hey, I remember what Mark Twain said too.
---
### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [May 26, 2013, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-like-being-called-irrational-just-because-i-do-not-accept-the-theory-of-evolution/658755/116 "2013-05-26T05:07:11Z")
> [@Melbourne](#):
>
> There is a big step from Agnosticism to Atheism.
>
> And the same step from knowing that Evolution is a weakly-supported religous belief to knowing that Evolution is false.
>
> You seem to have made that step. Which I respect. I’m outside this argument. But you’ve taken the argument inside their religious beliefs and called out their religious beliefs as irrational. With respect, that’s never going to work.
>
> So, here are some suggestions about how you could handle it.
>
> 1. I’m insulted. I respect your firmly held beliefs, and ask you to respect mine.
> 2. I’m insulted. You’ve got your religous beliefs, and when you’ve studied up on comparitive religon, HPS, or anthropology, get back to me about that. Until then, SFU.
> 3. You’re ridiculous. You all agree with each other, and have no idea how funny that looks. You’re “science” is like Mormon theology, but you take it seriously, don’t you?. You know, most of them don’t?
>
> Take your pick. I reckon any of those suggestions is likely to be more fun and educational than throwing rocks at a hornets nest, but hey, I remember what Mark Twain said too.
You are not “outside this argument.” You are outside the entire context in which the argument occurs. Referring to the scientific discussion regarding evolution as a “belief,” particularly a religious belief, is rather like stating that one is “outside the argument” between a person who holds that all human illness is the result of demons attacking the body and a person who identifies disease in terms of bacteria, viruses, and the body’s blood- and lymph-borne responses to such pathogens.
Those who recognize the value of the Theory of Evolution are not engaged in “belief.” The scientific evidence for evolution is overwhelming. The moment one decides to attack it as a “belief,” one proclaims one’s ignorance.
Your point 1 is silly: choosing to be insulted because one is ignorant of science is pointless.
Your point 2 is foolish: choosing to be insulted because one is ignorant of science and then appealing to really bad analogies to comparative religions or falsely appealing to “anthropology” demonstrates that one is not merely ignorant, but willfully ignorant.
Your point 3 is stupid: it not only demonstrates an ignorance of the topic, it goes further to use one’s ignorance as a platform from which to hurl unfounded insults, proclaiming one’s ignorance in the worst possible way.
That is really bad advice you are offering.
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### Author:  [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)
#### Post date: [May 27, 2013, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-like-being-called-irrational-just-because-i-do-not-accept-the-theory-of-evolution/658755/117 "2013-05-27T01:00:11Z")
I have not, nor will I bother to read the thread or even most of the OP, but I’ll just respond to this:
> [@](#):
>
> **I Don’t Like Being Called Irrational. [Just because I do not accept the Theory of Evolution.]**
- Get used to it buddy.
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### Author:  [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)
#### Post date: [May 27, 2013, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-like-being-called-irrational-just-because-i-do-not-accept-the-theory-of-evolution/658755/118 "2013-05-27T10:24:48Z")
You have the right to be wrong; you have the responsibility to cope with the results.
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### Author:  [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)
#### Post date: [May 27, 2013, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-like-being-called-irrational-just-because-i-do-not-accept-the-theory-of-evolution/658755/119 "2013-05-27T12:57:34Z")
Apparently **Atarii’s** “studymobile” ran him over. Maybe he didn’t believe in the theory of inertia.
I dislike people who don’t stand by their OP’s.
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### Author:  [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)
#### Post date: [May 27, 2013, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-like-being-called-irrational-just-because-i-do-not-accept-the-theory-of-evolution/658755/120 "2013-05-27T13:53:06Z")
It looks like Atarii is just another one month wonder on SD.
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