# I don't like Islam
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-like-islam/779277
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [February 7, 2017, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-like-islam/779277 "2017-02-07T21:47:59Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 5
### Author:  [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2017, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-like-islam/779277/81 "2017-02-10T09:04:52Z")
Mohammed was born 1447 years ago; Christ, look at the date.
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### Author:  [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2017, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-like-islam/779277/82 "2017-02-10T10:04:38Z")
> [@Grumman](#):
>
> ChIf you think you’re supposed to follow Deuteronomy, you suck at being a Christian: one of the most famous parts of the New Testament is Jesus Christ telling people not to follow the rules of the Old Testament,
Like here?
[QUOTE=Matthew]
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
[/QUOTE]
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### Author:  [@Weisshund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weisshund)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2017, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-like-islam/779277/83 "2017-02-10T10:42:44Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#):
>
> Also from Paul:
>
> **Colossians 3:22**
> Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord.
>
> **Ephesians 5:22-24**
> Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
2 things, well 3
1. Just for the record, Slave has a different biblical meaning than modern.
For one, a biblical slave is a person, a modern slave is a non person.
Not in every biblical era society, but then only one society was being addressed
2. You leave out half of the equation, maybe Paul does too, but then he isnt speaking his own words.
Wife submits to husband as head of their family, Husband submits to God as his head.
How wife submits to husband God accepts as submission to him, because thats what he asked her to do.
Husband is to treat wife like God would treat her, not how husband feels like, how God would. Husband is directly answerable to God, how husband treats wife is how God is going to treat husband, he treats wife like shit, he is screwed.
So wife is not actually a lesser being, see how that works?
Wife submits to husband, because she will do this willingly husband will place her above even himself.
Husband submits to God, and because he does so willingly, He gives him everything in creation and wife too because she did it how God asked her to.
And in the end, both are equal.
Paul didn’t invent that, read the torrah, it was written before he was ever born.
Which is point 3, Paul is just rehashing, and apparently not doing a complete job of it, what was written long before he ever existed.
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### Author:  [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2017, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-like-islam/779277/84 "2017-02-10T11:06:44Z")
> [@clairobscur](#):
>
> Like here?
Yes, like there. If you said “I have not come to abolish this contract but to fulfill it,” would anyone dispute its meaning? Ending the law because it has served its purpose still ends the law.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2017, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-like-islam/779277/85 "2017-02-10T12:08:32Z")
> [@Grumman](#):
>
> Yes, like there. If you said “I have not come to abolish this contract but to fulfill it,” would anyone dispute its meaning? Ending the law because it has served its purpose still ends the law.
Somehow the Bible gets to be nuanced and interpreted in the most positive light possible, but when peaceful Muslims do this for the Quran, somehow they’re not legitimately following the true Quran; they aren’t the real Muslims.
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### Author:  [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2017, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-like-islam/779277/86 "2017-02-10T12:45:15Z")
**iiandyiiii** : Did you see post 70?
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2017, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-like-islam/779277/87 "2017-02-10T13:03:13Z")
> [@Monty](#):
>
> **iiandyiiii** : Did you see post 70?
Yep. It seems we agree.
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### Author:  [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2017, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-like-islam/779277/88 "2017-02-10T13:53:22Z")
Turkey’s government is strictly secular. They have astonishing problems with gender inequality.
I know it’s true for many people the only interaction you have with Muslims is what you find on the internet. The problem with that of course is it is you, with your perception, doing the searching. Try looking for something other than Quranic quotes or what the news feeds you if you want a more nuanced view of Islam.
You can’t separate Islam from Muslims or Christianity from Christians. Where the people are strong believers in norms that promote gender inequality then Islam is sexist. Where the people are strong believers in gender equality then Islam is egalitarian.
The hypothetical followers of the faith in each society, or distinct cultures in a society, or even among distinct individuals in a family will all be able to point to Quranic verses that support their view. I don’t know why this isn’t obvious to some people.
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### Author:  [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2017, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-like-islam/779277/89 "2017-02-10T15:50:57Z")
> [@Evan\_Drake](#):
>
> Mohammed was born 1447 years ago; Christ, look at the date.
Meaning of the last part was lost in a cut and paste but the point is that the US just gave these rights to women a short time ago, complaining that some poorer, less stable country that primarily has islamic citizens is due to some morally superior trait of the christian side is just plain ignorant.
It probably has more to do with mechanization, economic prosperity and/or stability than it has to do with anything religious.
Christianity has not valid claim to a superior model of morality for very very recent changes in secular society.
(and Jesus was not born 2016 years ago)
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### Author:  [@Jefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jefferson)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2017, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-like-islam/779277/90 "2017-02-10T18:30:26Z")
> [@BigT](#):
>
> The problem with this thread is quite simple. There is no reason to consolidate and isolate Islam like this. There is no reason we can’t just call things like misogyny wrong without pulling the entire religion along for the ride.
>
> The fact is that Islam can exist without misogyny. We already see it in here in the U.S. So it cannot be the religion that is the problem, and thus disliking the religion makes no sense. Clearly, it is not the religion that creates that issue, but the culture. Fix the culture, and we don’t need to do anything to the religion.
>
> And, yes, this holds for people who hate Christians. Yes, I hate homophobia, misogyny, racism, etc. But, because there is a version of Christianity that condemns all these things, I can’t dislike Christianity. Inherently, doing so would make me bigoted towards the religion, as I am grouping the bad with the good.
>
> It’s the same reason why saying “black people are thieves” is wrong. Yes, some are. But it’s wrong to tar the entire race because of some. Same with Islam.
>
> You want to fight misogyny in Islam? Find the scriptures that allow you to do so, as we have done with Christianity.
And some Nazis are great dudes. But they get demonised.
We still have a long way to go, sadly.
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### Author:  [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2017, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-like-islam/779277/91 "2017-02-10T19:25:00Z")
> [@Jefferson](#):
>
> And some Nazis are great dudes. But they get demonised.
>
> We still have a long way to go, sadly.
> **[A KKK That Accepts Gay, Jewish Klansmen?](https://www.advocate.com/politics/religion/2014/11/11/kkk-accepts-gay-jewish-klansmen)**
>
> A Montana man says he's starting a KKK chapter that doesn't discriminate based on race, religion, or sexual orientation.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2017, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-like-islam/779277/92 "2017-02-10T19:36:28Z")
> [@Jefferson](#):
>
> And some Nazis are great dudes. But they get demonised.
Which Nazis are “great dudes”?
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### Author:  [@Jefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jefferson)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2017, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-like-islam/779277/93 "2017-02-10T20:29:28Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> Which Nazis are “great dudes”?
All the peace loving, liberal, Guardian reading, gay friendly ones.
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### Author:  [@Jefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jefferson)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2017, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-like-islam/779277/94 "2017-02-10T20:38:12Z")
Are we all aware of the recent survey asking people in European countries whether they wanted a ban on Muslim immigration? 55% said they do, 20% said they didn’t, and the rest didn’t say.
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### Author:  [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2017, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-like-islam/779277/95 "2017-02-10T20:40:02Z")
Schindler (of _Schindler’s List_) was a Nazi party member.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2017, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-like-islam/779277/96 "2017-02-10T20:44:03Z")
> [@Jefferson](#):
>
> All the peace loving, liberal, Guardian reading, gay friendly ones.
Where do these mythic figures exist? Do you have any names?
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### Author:  [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2017, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-like-islam/779277/97 "2017-02-10T21:13:06Z")
> [@Jefferson](#):
>
> Are we all aware of the recent survey asking people in European countries whether they wanted a ban on Muslim immigration? 55% said they do, 20% said they didn’t, and the rest didn’t say.
To be fair, Muslim immigration in Europe is more like if Mexico decided to send half its population North. Fear of terrorism/Islam may be a component for many Europeans, but for many it might just be opposition to having a sudden, mass population swell of foreigners.
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### Author:  [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2017, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-like-islam/779277/98 "2017-02-10T21:39:19Z")
> [@Weisshund](#):
>
> So wife is not actually a lesser being, see how that works?
> Wife submits to husband, because she will do this willingly husband will place her above even himself.
> Husband submits to God, and because he does so willingly, He gives him everything in creation and wife too because she did it how God asked her to.
> And in the end, both are equal.
I had trouble following this. If wives aren’t lesser beings, why would God ask them to submit to their husbands? Why not an equal partnership? Or why doesn’t God sometimes ask the husband submit to the wife? Moreover, in this God/man, husband/wife analogy, how is mankind not lesser to God? God doesn’t submit to man. God judges and punishes man for their transgressions.
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### Author:  [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2017, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-like-islam/779277/99 "2017-02-10T23:29:19Z")
> [@CairoCarol](#):
>
> It appears that you are now seeking evidence that will permit you to claim that Indonesia, with it’s pretty good (not perfect) record of respecting women doesn’t count as a Muslim country. Okay, I’ll play. But I need to know up front what the goal posts are, so they don’t move again. Define for me what criteria you would apply to determine the extent to which Islam has political power in a country? Is it only if there is Sharia? (By that definition, no, Indonesia is not a Muslim country.) Or do you have other standards?
I think there is a legitimate difference between a country where the majority of the population is Muslim, and one where the laws and government and law enforcement are based strongly on Muslim religious writings (which I understand includes more than just the Quran, if that matters).
So it is the latter case that I would look at to test whether the religion’s writings, as embodied in the laws and government and law enforcement, has a negative effect on the rights of women (for example, since that’s what we seem to be talking about most). In the first case, women may still suffer from various bad conditions at least partially as a result of the influence of Islam, it is just harder to be sure what the cause is without being on the ground.
I am not so much interested in what should be called a Muslim country. The larger question is whether Islam tends to oppress women. My original question about Muslim countries or regions was just a way to try to break down this question into manageable pieces. I never wanted to get lost in the weeds about what is or is not a “Muslim country.” So by all means lets talk about the larger question instead.
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### Author:  [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2017, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-like-islam/779277/100 "2017-02-11T00:25:06Z")
> [@Weisshund](#):
>
> 1. Just for the record, Slave has a different biblical meaning than modern.
> For one, a biblical slave is a person, a modern slave is a non person.
> Not in every biblical era society, but then only one society was being addressed
While I would question how much research went behind this statement, let’s accept it as true.
Is any form of slavery still considered to be moral, even the one that you state is the intent of the Bible? No.
Perhaps we could make an argument that God was going with what was politically feasible at the time? Well, again, no. The stoic, Seneca, was preaching an end to slavery at about the same time as Jesus, and likely this position preceded him among the stoics. Alcidamas, 400 years earlier, wrote, “God has left all men free; nature has made no man a slave”.
If some random Greek philosopher can make the argument, one would think that a Son of God, the guy who achieved divine revelation of everything that the Son of God had to offer, or God himself could have as well. If you can split the sea and bring down a storm of locusts, one would think that you could enforce your political view on how humans are meant to treat one another.
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