I don't like Islam

[Roderick_Femm]

@Inbred_Mm_domesticus

(snip) You can’t separate Islam from Muslims or Christianity from Christians. Where the people are strong believers in norms that promote gender inequality then Islam is sexist. Where the people are strong believers in gender equality then Islam is egalitarian.

The hypothetical followers of the faith in each society, or distinct cultures in a society, or even among distinct individuals in a family will all be able to point to Quranic verses that support their view. I don’t know why this isn’t obvious to some people.

Since I am more familiar with Christianity in a majority-Christian country, I’m going to say I’m not so sure that it works that way with the Bible. That is, it seems to me that strong believers in gender equality in the US tend to just ignore those passages that support gender inequality because there are few if any passages in the Bible that support it*. I would be even more surprised to find passages in the Quran that support gender equality.

In a sense this is sort of a chicken-and-egg issue. Muhammed wrote a book, many people adopted it as the basis for a religion, and then more people and whole societies adopted both the book and the religion over time presumably because they believed the teachings to be true (or at least agreeable). Are the teachings responsible for the attitudes of the adherents, or are the adherents responsible for having adopted the teachings? Some of both, I would say.

*I am going to check this with my sister who is both born-again and a very independent and, shall I say, gender-equal person, to see what she can tell me about what the Bible says about that issue.

[Sage_Rat]

@Roderick_Femm

Since I am more familiar with Christianity in a majority-Christian country, I’m going to say I’m not so sure that it works that way with the Bible. That is, it seems to me that strong believers in gender equality in the US tend to just ignore those passages that support gender inequality because there are few if any passages in the Bible that support it*. I would be even more surprised to find passages in the Quran that support gender equality.

This section from the Koran appears to be almost a copy-and-paste of Paul’s statement in Galatians:

“Verily for all men and women who have surrendered themselves unto God, and all believing men and believing women, and all truly devout men and truly devout women, and all men and women who are true to their word, and all men and women who are patient in adversity, and all men and women who humble themselves before God, and all men and women who give in charity, and all self-denying men and self-denying women, and all men and women who are mindful of their chastity, and all men and women who remmber God unceasingly: for all of them has God readied forgiveness of sins and a mighty reward.” (33:35)

[Kobal2]

@Roderick_Femm

Since I am more familiar with Christianity in a majority-Christian country, I’m going to say I’m not so sure that it works that way with the Bible. That is, it seems to me that strong believers in gender equality in the US tend to just ignore those passages that support gender inequality because there are few if any passages in the Bible that support it*. I would be even more surprised to find passages in the Quran that support gender equality.

In a sense this is sort of a chicken-and-egg issue. Muhammed wrote a book, many people adopted it as the basis for a religion, and then more people and whole societies adopted both the book and the religion over time presumably because they believed the teachings to be true (or at least agreeable). Are the teachings responsible for the attitudes of the adherents, or are the adherents responsible for having adopted the teachings? Some of both, I would say.

*I am going to check this with my sister who is both born-again and a very independent and, shall I say, gender-equal person, to see what she can tell me about what the Bible says about that issue.

Kinda wrong. For one thing, as of 7th century ethics, the Koran was progressive as shit WRT gender and women. For example, while it does allow polygyny (as was the typical practice of that region, and had been for centuries) Muhammad emphasized that one shouldn’t have more wives than they could please sexually, and emphasized that sex had been done wrong if the lady didn’t get off.
I don’t think you’ll find that in the Bible ;).

[CairoCarol]

[QUOTE=Roderick Femm]
]I am not so much interested in what should be called a Muslim country.
[/QUOTE]

Let’s review:

(1) You ask, in your OP, “is there any Muslim country or region where women have anything like equal rights?”

(2) I respond, "The largest Muslim country in the world has had a woman president, has a holiday that commemorates a woman, has a number of powerful female business leaders, and actually had such a pro-birth control policy that back in the 1970s they celebrated family planning on one of their coins. "

(3) You ask, “I assume you refer to Pakistan? [As we have established, this is embarrassingly wrong - it’s Indonesia.] Do women have the legal right to divorce on the same grounds as men? Do women have the legal right to own property in their own right? Are women treated equally under the law respecting sexual assault? Final question: where these legal rights exist, are they honored in the countryside as much as in the cities?”

(4) I answer: “In Indonesia, women have the same right to divorce as men, and they can own property the same as men. I’m not deeply familiar with sexual assault law or differences in treatment of legal rights in the countryside versus major cities, but I AM familiar with critiques of the justice system, and while there are many well-documented problems, this isn’t one I’ve heard about.”

(5) You argue, "you didn’t specifically respond to (it wasn’t directed at you but it was a result of your post), was that “the extent that ordinary women’s rights are recognized in a country such as Indonesia is the extent to which Islam does not have political power, and vice versa. If Indonesia’s government is largely or mostly secular, this would support my contention; if not, that would tend to prove me wrong about this point.”

(6) Being a bit tired of having each of my comments dismissed as somehow not providing the evidence that you could actually accept, rather than discuss “the extent to which Islam does not have political power” in Indonesia, I ask you “Define for me what criteria you would apply to determine the extent to which Islam has political power in a country? Is it only if there is Sharia?”

(7) You give a rather non-specific answer, “I think there is a legitimate difference between a country where the majority of the population is Muslim, and one where the laws and government and law enforcement are based strongly on Muslim religious writings (which I understand includes more than just the Quran, if that matters).” And go on to add: "I never wanted to get lost in the weeds about what is or is not a "‘Muslim country.’ "

So in other words, damned if I do and damned if I don’t. If I actually try to answer your question, you tell me that my evidence isn’t what you were looking for, and when I follow up with evidence that answers the questions you add, you decide that maybe Indonesia doesn’t really count as a Muslim country. And when I ask you what your definition is, you say you don’t want to get “in the weeds” about it.

Can you fault me for thinking that your mind is not open on this - that whatever I say about Indonesia and women’s rights, you will push back on that basis that either women’s rights aren’t really honored in Indonesia, or if they are, it isn’t really a Muslim country?

Well, I will bow out now, because I am pretty sure that there is nothing I can say that will convince you that the answer to “is there any Muslim country or region where women have anything like equal rights?” is “Yes. Indonesia.”

[Monty]

We’re back to divorce laws? Philippines. Not Philippians, the epistle, bit Philippines, the country. Take a wild guess what religion influenced the continuing ban on divorce.

[rat_avatar]

@Roderick_Femm

I think there is a legitimate difference between a country where the majority of the population is Muslim, and one where the laws and government and law enforcement are based strongly on Muslim religious writings (which I understand includes more than just the Quran, if that matters).

So it is the latter case that I would look at to test whether the religion’s writings, as embodied in the laws and government and law enforcement, has a negative effect on the rights of women (for example, since that’s what we seem to be talking about most). In the first case, women may still suffer from various bad conditions at least partially as a result of the influence of Islam, it is just harder to be sure what the cause is without being on the ground.

I am not so much interested in what should be called a Muslim country. The larger question is whether Islam tends to oppress women. My original question about Muslim countries or regions was just a way to try to break down this question into manageable pieces. I never wanted to get lost in the weeds about what is or is not a “Muslim country.” So by all means lets talk about the larger question instead.

You do realize that the woman’s suffrage movement in Christian countries is counter the Christian Bible and that it was only secular society that let it happen.

1 Timothy 2:11-12

Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
(Colossians 3:18; cf. 1 Peter 3:1 and Ephesians 5:22)

… I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man…For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, foreasmuch as he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
(1 Corinthians 11:3 & 7-9)

Let your women keep silence in churches: for it is not permitted unto them; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also sayeth the law.
(1 Corinthians 14:34, c/f 1 Corinthians 11:3-9 & Timothy 2:11-12)

Commentaries on English Law (1765–1769)

By marriage, the husband and wife are one person in the law: that is, the very being or legal existence of the woman is suspended during the marriage, or at least is incorporated and consolidated into that of the husband: under whose wing, protection, and cover, she performs every thing.

So you really need to come back with some cites showing how Islam is some how worse. I think you are taking credit for a Religion doing what was done counter to the “church”.

Your claim that Islam is inherently worse to women based purely on religion has not been backed up by fact.

You are using their Religion to condemn them while ignoring the ugliness and gospel of a religion you are familiar with.

Correlation does not equal causation…and Christian morals were not the reason for a move to equal rights here, and in fact Christian morals are a large part of what is blocking forward movement to a state of true equality.

[Monty]

rat avatar: Wouldn’t it be more accurate to say that what those in power perceived to be Christian morals at the time to be what was blocking change? After all, there are reformers who refer to scripture to support reform. Given that the main religions have scriptures that were developed over years, decades, or even many centuries, it should not come as a surprise that there will be something in those scriptures that people can point to in order to bolster their position, be it conservative or reformative.

[rat_avatar]

@Monty

rat avatar: Wouldn’t it be more accurate to say that what those in power perceived to be Christian morals at the time to be what was blocking change? After all, there are reformers who refer to scripture to support reform. Given that the main religions have scriptures that were developed over years, decades, or even many centuries, it should not come as a surprise that there will be something in those scriptures that people can point to in order to bolster their position, be it conservative or reformative.

While that may be relevant in another context of the OP.

But I do have problems with Islam as a cultural institution

The arguments have been directed at Islam while ignoring the overall problems with religious laws in general. The fact that happenstance caused the Christian world to move forward in very recent history does not excuse the past digressions against humanity.

From the OP.

1. Blasphemy was illegal Sweden until 1970, Norway until 2009, the Netherlands in 2014 and Iceland in 2015. And you can still go to jail for it in France or Germany. While there are not many countries with death sentences for it like apostasy or blasphemy in some Muslim majority countries this is a fairly recent development.

2. Lack of central leadership is common in Christian churches, and pretty much anyone who is persuasive can get himself a following as a “religious leader” Cite: Richard Girnt Butler, Mark Driscoll etc…

3. Was related to the treatment of women, and was covered in previous posts but has nothing to do with Islam being worse (although all of he Abrahamic religions are pretty bad) But you cannot ignore the economic and social realities that are in play here. These forces are no way that anyone has demonstrated “worse” in Islam.

The problem is that this is all in-group/out-group biases, which ignore the “Christians” calling for this exact same behavior in our very own country.

Take a few seconds to look over Harold Covington’s twitter feed for a cite.

https://twitter.com/HAC1488

The point is that the things like the French revolution probably had way more to do with it than any difference between Christianity and Islam.

I haven’t seen any argument that prejudices Islam based on things truly unique about the religion.

If this was a thread about the impacts of religious texts on morality my reply would be different, but this is a thread about affirming a bias based on religious affiliation. And thus pointing out that this group is not unique in leveraging these justifications often well within the lifetimes of posters on this board is valid . The premise has not been agued for in any way outside of arguments based on attribution errors and confirmation bias.

[Monty]

But what is truly unique about Islam?

[TonySinclair]

@Grumman

Yes, like there. If you said “I have not come to abolish this contract but to fulfill it,” would anyone dispute its meaning?

Evidently you would, because if someone said that to me, I would assume he meant that he intended to obey whatever was in the contract. I honestly don’t understand how anyone could think “fulfill” means “disregard,” especially when the contract explicitly says that it never expires (Deut 11:1). If you want to fulfill a contract that never expires, you continue to abide by its conditions.

Fortunately, Jesus anticipated slow learners, so he made it explicit: “Until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.”

Wait, you say all has been accomplished? Tell me, when have any of the non-mundane events that Jesus listed in Matthew 24 occurred? Yes, there have been wars and rumors of wars, so he nailed that extremely obvious prediction. But when was the tribulation that was worse than anything before or since? One that was so bad it would exterminate the entire human race if God did not intervene? When did the stars fall from the sky? When did all the peoples of the earth mourn as they saw Jesus’ second coming? When were the elect gathered from the four winds by angels with trumpets?

[rat_avatar]

@Monty

But what is truly unique about Islam?

The burden of proof lies with the person making the claim that there is a unique trait…and that those unique traits are causative the negative traits in the OP.

But…I don’t know? The creation of useful number writing methods due to the earlier creation of rhetorical algebra?

[Monty]

@rat_avatar

The burden of proof lies with the person making the claim that there is a unique trait…and that those unique traits are causative the negative traits in the OP.

Agreed. Personally, I don’t think Islam is unique.

But…I don’t know? The creation of useful number writing methods due to the earlier creation of rhetorical algebra?

Those aren’t religious ideas.

[Inbred_Mm_domesticus]

@Roderick_Femm

Since I am more familiar with Christianity in a majority-Christian country, I’m going to say I’m not so sure that it works that way with the Bible. That is, it seems to me that strong believers in gender equality in the US tend to just ignore those passages that support gender inequality

Sure go ahead and say they ignore certain passages that support gender inequality. That is just an extreme example of interpreting the Bible/Quran to suit one’s sensibilities. Regardless, the religion of Islam or Christianity is plastic and changes according to the sensibilities of the people who identify with the religion.

@Roderick_Femm

Muhammed wrote a book

You really need to question everything you think you know about Islam and go look it up. Every time you write a sentence about Islam, step back and say “Maybe I don’t know what I am talking about!” and Google it.

@Roderick_Femm

many people adopted it as the basis for a religion, and then more people and whole societies adopted both the book and the religion over time presumably because they believed the teachings to be true (or at least agreeable).

Don’t forget conquest and forced conversion as a means by which any religion spreads.

@Roderick_Femm

Are the teachings responsible for the attitudes of the adherents, or are the adherents responsible for having adopted the teachings? Some of both, I would say.

The attitudes of the adherents are the result of having been encultured with a certain view on their religion.

[Trinopus]

@Monty

But what is truly unique about Islam?

The verses of the Koran are not printed in numerical order.

[Monty]

@Trinopus

The verses of the Koran are not printed in numerical order.

What? Every copy I have seen has the verses numbered in order: 1, 2, 3, etc. Now if you meant the surahs are not in chronological order, then that is not unique, either, as the books of the New Testament are not in chronological order.

[Jefferson]

@Sage_Rat

To be fair, Muslim immigration in Europe is more like if Mexico decided to send half its population North. Fear of terrorism/Islam may be a component for many Europeans, but for many it might just be opposition to having a sudden, mass population swell of foreigners.

No. It’s much more than just numbers (which of course is a big factor) and it’s more than just terrorism. Muslims can be extremists even if they are no danger of bombing anyone. (In saying that it takes as little as 12 days to turn a “moderate Muslim” into a terrorist).

[Monty]

@Jefferson

No. It’s much more than just numbers (which of course is a big factor) and it’s more than just terrorism. Muslims can be extremists even if they are no danger of bombing anyone. (In saying that it takes as little as 12 days to turn a “moderate Muslim” into a terrorist).

Care to provide proof of this assertion?

[Jefferson]

@Monty

Care to provide proof of this assertion?

What bit of what I said is news to you? All of it?

[pool]

Monty, you haven’t seen the infomercial,12 days or your money back?

[Trinopus]

ETA: I seem to be in error: the verses are NUMBERED sequentially; they are REARRANGED to be shortest to longest, and then numbered that way! So THAT is my answer for why Islam is unique! I apologize for my error!