# I don't need the State's permission to defend myself (Gun Control) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 21, 2009, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-need-the-states-permission-to-defend-myself-gun-control/514556 "2009-10-21T01:32:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-need-the-states-permission-to-defend-myself-gun-control/514556/101 "2009-10-23T03:33:20Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > BTW, don’t think for a minute that I’m advocating just walking into a store and buying a gun off the rack. I should have to take a course on safe gun handling. I should have to pass a test and I should have to do retests on a regular basis. Glad we agree on that. Now kindly persuade the members of the NRA to accept this approach and we’ll have some common ground. Really sad that that’s not very likely. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-need-the-states-permission-to-defend-myself-gun-control/514556/102 "2009-10-23T03:41:58Z")
> [@](#): > > If they’ve served their time they should be able to conceal carry. By “their time” do you mean just imprisonment or are you also included probation? Probation is the more common sentence, either as an alternative to imprisonment or as a continuation of a sentence after a release from prison. Probation places a number of restrictions on the person’s rights, including constitutional ones. So would you feel that restricting a person’s firearm ownership while they are on probation is acceptable? ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-need-the-states-permission-to-defend-myself-gun-control/514556/103 "2009-10-23T04:15:22Z")
It is interesting this. There really is a quite clear divide - those that believe that the rights of the individual trump those of the rest of the community, and those that believe that the rights of the community trump those of the individual. Personally I think my right is to expect that my government should protect me from a proven or likely killer. Thought experiment: If the convicted killer serves his time, is released, kills again, serves his time, and is released. Should the _ **still** _ be allowed a weapon? Do you extend the same logic to peadophiles? Once they have served their “debt to society” should they be allowed unfettered, unchecked access to children? What do you think prison’s purpose is? Deterence, punishment, rehabilitation? What balance? What exactly is a debt to society then? If I kill your wife, do my time, am I now without blemish? In your eyes? Again, my view is that things are never black and white. Communities succeed because they allow the odds to work for them. Further, with rights comes responsibility. It seems that rather often I am hearing an assertion that people have the right to abrogate responsibility. Which is, IMHO, just plain silly, not to mention selfish. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-need-the-states-permission-to-defend-myself-gun-control/514556/104 "2009-10-23T04:19:33Z")
> [@Francis\_Vaughan](#): > > Personally I think my right is to expect that my government should protect me from a proven or likely killer. Duh. But people who own guns aren’t proven or even to be a likely killer. ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-need-the-states-permission-to-defend-myself-gun-control/514556/105 "2009-10-23T04:28:02Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > My point about vehicles is that they are far more deadly than guns and we don’t do anything to ensure that once you’ve passed your basic test you don’t have to prove you’ve remained competent. Personally I would regard this as a further failing of our society, not a reason to lessen controls eleswhere. Justifying a sin by saying that someone else sins isn’t a tennable argument. The number of kids that kill themselves in cars is astounding. Often because they think they are immortal, and have no real understanding of risk. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-need-the-states-permission-to-defend-myself-gun-control/514556/106 "2009-10-23T04:35:15Z")
No, but what it does say is that politicians pick on the gun issue because it is an easy win for them. The voters who vote for them aren’t affected by being denied something that they don’t see a need for and actively fear, in some cases. If the politicians said that, at your own expense, every 5 years you must be retested when your driver’s license is renewed, and the test is actually something you have to work to pass, they’d have an uproar from their voters. So, they pick the easy out to make it look like they are actually accomplishing something useful. Quite making it seem like your government is ‘protecting’ you when all it is doing is pandering. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-need-the-states-permission-to-defend-myself-gun-control/514556/107 "2009-10-23T05:19:03Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > No, but what it does say is that politicians pick on the gun issue because it is an easy win for them. Is that a joke? ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-need-the-states-permission-to-defend-myself-gun-control/514556/108 "2009-10-23T05:33:14Z")
> [@Mach Tuck](#): > > Is that a joke? Did you find it funny? ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-need-the-states-permission-to-defend-myself-gun-control/514556/109 "2009-10-23T05:53:59Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Did you find it funny? I found it baffling, and I’m asking for real: Was that a joke? Do you actually think the “gun issue” is an easy win for any politician? I suppose a simple yes/no position might appeal to a politician’s base, but are you saying… Wait, what are you saying? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-need-the-states-permission-to-defend-myself-gun-control/514556/110 "2009-10-23T06:12:32Z")
> [@](#): > > Did you find it funny? Hopefully you meant it as a joke. With the exception of abortion, there’s no significant political topic in this country that’s guaranteed to raise opposition for a politician like gun control. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-need-the-states-permission-to-defend-myself-gun-control/514556/111 "2009-10-23T06:18:51Z")
> [@Mach Tuck](#): > > I found it baffling, and I’m asking for real: Was that a joke? Do you actually think the “gun issue” is an easy win for any politician? It is an easy win compared to trying to improve licensing for drivers, isn’t it? It is probably an easy win for him if he is going after the anti-gun crowd. If that is the demographic he is going for he can make all the rants he wants about how bad guns are as his voting base is likely to believe it, approve of it and cast votes for him based upon it. The latter is all most politicians care about. ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-need-the-states-permission-to-defend-myself-gun-control/514556/112 "2009-10-23T07:53:53Z")
One of the arts of political spin is to make it appear that they support what you do, whilst actually not doing anything substantive. This is one of the worst sorts of politicians, but one we seem to have evolved ourselves to have. So seeing one of these slimeballs look for an easy path through gun laws isn’t too surprising. However, as pointed out, the contentious and inflamatory nature of the subject means that unless they are sure of their constituency their efforts will come unstuck. The other art of politics is screwing over the faithful in favour of clawing in a few uncommitted votes. There is a fine line in pursuing a policy that, whilst it offends the supporters, usually the more far form centre, is not enough to put them off voting for you, and grabs a few more votes from the center. Gun laws are probably just too polarizing for this to work, but I can imagine politicians crunching the numbers very carefully if they felt that they were close to the edge in an election. It sure happens over here in Oz. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-need-the-states-permission-to-defend-myself-gun-control/514556/113 "2009-10-23T19:53:49Z")
> [@Mach Tuck](#): > > Glad we agree on that. Now kindly persuade the members of the NRA to accept this approach and we’ll have some common ground. Really sad that that’s not very likely. If you polled NRA members, you would find that in the context of concealed carry, most would agree to permits and regular testing. You do realize of course that most gun owners are NOT NRA members, right? ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-need-the-states-permission-to-defend-myself-gun-control/514556/114 "2009-10-23T23:14:27Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > If you polled NRA members, you would find that in the context of concealed carry, most would agree to permits and regular testing. Why shouldn’t everyone have to meet that standard of training, not just concealed carry? I’ll be glad to listen to reasons why the NRA would take that position, but at the moment I don’t see the logic. I’ll also say that I agree with the idea of recurrent training and/or testing of drivers. It doesn’t make sense to certify someone once when they are 16, and then never look at their skills again. > [@JXJohns](#): > > You do realize of course that most gun owners are NOT NRA members, right? OK. But they do seem to have a lot of influence on these issues nonetheless, which is why I mentioned them. I don’t think that was out of place. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-need-the-states-permission-to-defend-myself-gun-control/514556/115 "2009-10-24T02:11:07Z")
> [@Mach Tuck](#): > > Why shouldn’t everyone have to meet that standard of training, not just concealed carry? I’ll be glad to listen to reasons why the NRA would take that position, but at the moment I don’t see the logic. I don’t feel that concealed carry is protected by the second amendment. As such, if I need to jump through a few more hoops to do so legally, I don’t mind. I’m also a Life NRA member FWIW. However, to require training and registration simply to own a gun, in my opinion, is adding qualifications in order to exercise a right affirmed by the Constitution… No thanks. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-need-the-states-permission-to-defend-myself-gun-control/514556/116 "2009-10-24T21:32:52Z")
> [@Xan](#): > > If they’ve served their time they should be able to conceal carry. And if they are still on probation, what then? No licensing, & no police powers to confiscate weapons, means no restrictions short of incarceration. Not for those on probation; not for those free while court cases are pending, not for mental incompetents. Is that really best? Why not have a relatively easy licensing regime? ---
**Author:** ![Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fake_Tales_of_San_Francisco)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-need-the-states-permission-to-defend-myself-gun-control/514556/117 "2009-10-24T22:32:42Z")
> [@BrandonR](#): > > And I’d prefer that everyone be nice and for candy to rain from the sky, but in the real world, real criminals have real guns and commit real murders every single day. I think it’s possible to live in a world without [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting#Notable_school_shootings) at least. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2009, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-need-the-states-permission-to-defend-myself-gun-control/514556/118 "2009-10-25T01:06:28Z")
> [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](#): > > I think it’s possible to live in a world without [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting#Notable_school_shootings) at least. You mean if people would just obey the laws, right? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-need-the-states-permission-to-defend-myself-gun-control/514556.md?page=5)