# I don't need your damn opinion on my family size! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 24, 2003, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-need-your-damn-opinion-on-my-family-size/157175 "2003-02-24T16:12:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2003, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-need-your-damn-opinion-on-my-family-size/157175/61 "2003-02-24T23:46:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gangster Octopus \* > \*\*Hee hee. > > Umm, people aren’t produce, they produce…Let me try again… > > I’m sorry but having more kids is not analagous to owning an SUV. People produce as well as consume. People are a resource. \*\* Your point is valid as long as the ultimate raw materials always exist in sufficient quantities to supply that productivity. People do produce as well as consume, but that production is not ex vacuo. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-need-your-damn-opinion-on-my-family-size/157175/62 "2003-02-25T00:17:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by javaman \* > \*\* If by some bizarre chance the survival of the human race depended on not putting more than a dozen eggs into a standard twelve-egg carton, you’d no doubt say it was anyone’s right to try to force in an extra egg. \*\* Wow. Does anyone else **really** think that this is an apt analogy? ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-need-your-damn-opinion-on-my-family-size/157175/63 "2003-02-25T00:25:59Z")
So far **javaman** has just made inaccurate claims and silly analogies. Then he refuses to admit his claim that American women are contributing to the overpopulation problem is false and just says: > [@](#): > > At any rate, I’m not going to argue with you anymore Feh! ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-need-your-damn-opinion-on-my-family-size/157175/64 "2003-02-25T01:10:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by autz \* > \*\*So far **javaman** has just made inaccurate claims and silly analogies. > > Then he refuses to admit his claim that American women are contributing to the overpopulation problem is false and just says: > > Feh! \*\* Don’t turn this into a gender specific arguement. I never said that American women were responsible for the overpopulation problem. It’s not an American problem, it’s a world problem that includes Americans and everyone else. I don’t even see how you can use the phrase “overpopulation problem” because you don’t seem to think it exists. It does exist. And if you can’t accept the fact that there is an upper limit to (a) how many people the world can support at all, and (b) a less generous upper limit to how many people the world can support at a level that most of us would consider acceptable, and still leave viable wilderness areas for nonhuman life. Do the words “deforestation” and “habitat loss” mean anything to you? How close we are to the upper limit is debatable, but I can’t agree that the earth’s resources are limitless. Or was I absent from school the day they taught everyone else about the other Earth in near solar orbit that we can colonize when we’re done using up this planet? ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-need-your-damn-opinion-on-my-family-size/157175/65 "2003-02-25T01:30:56Z")
You didn’t say that American women were responsible for the overpopulation problem? > [@](#): > > Population growth in the abstract may not have much effect on you, but if you commute daily in the Los Angeles area, or any other major city, it has a tremendous concrete impact on your quality of life. So here you’re talking about population growth in Los Angeles. > [@](#): > > The population of the U.S. is growing by leaps and bounds, and is expected to hit 500,000,000 by 2050 (and 1B by 2100). I would rather not live in a place where all our efforts to conserve and invent new ways of water and energy production go to accommodating population growth. > > Honestly, many of the replies in this thread demonstrate that ZPG advocates are considered lower than child molesters in the rogues gallery of abominations. You are complaining about overpopulation and that “population of the U.S. is growing by leaps and bounds.” Since this is mostly due to immigration, perhaps you should try arguing against that. And the second paragraph of that quote is simply bizarre. > [@](#): > > It’s ironic that pro-contraception, pro-small-family used to be more acceptable 30 years ago when our population (in the U.S.) was about two-thirds of what it is now. I remember ZPG TV spots; one of which wound up by saying, “There are lots of wrong reasons to have another kid”. Nowadays, it’s presumably too un-PC; as such a message would undoubtedly offend somebody’s religion or culture If indeed the population in the US 30 years ago is 2/3 of what it is now, it has NOTHING TO DO WITH PEOPLE HERE HAVING BABIES. The above quote pines for the good old days when you could encourage people to have smaller families. Well I guess it worked because most American women have small families. We are at **below replacement levels**! I never said there is no such thing as an overpopulation problem. Of course there is an upper limit. But it’s not due to “someone who feels that he/she doesn’t have a real family unless they’ve got four or more” ---
**Author:** ![Catamount](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/catamount/32/2840_2.png) [@Catamount](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catamount)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-need-your-damn-opinion-on-my-family-size/157175/66 "2003-02-25T01:35:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by javaman \* > \*\*Or was I absent from school the day they taught everyone else about the other Earth in near solar orbit that we can colonize when we’re done using up this planet? \*\* No, but apparently you were absent the day they explained that most of the population explosion is taking place in develop **ing** countries, not in develop **ed** countries like the U.S., U.K., and Australia. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-need-your-damn-opinion-on-my-family-size/157175/67 "2003-02-25T03:33:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by beagledave \* > \*\*Her: So when are you going to have another? > > Me: Mmmm grumble grumble grumble…snarky smile > \*\* The proper response would be, “After this one leaves for college!” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Shirley\_Ujest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shirley\_Ujest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shirley_Ujest)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-need-your-damn-opinion-on-my-family-size/157175/68 "2003-02-25T04:49:09Z")
You could have three kids like a friend of mine’s grandma did. One at 15 (which forced her to get married.) One at 30 One at 45. ( Un heard of then) This woman essentially raised three singles, and was -given the time period - ostracized her whole life. All with the same husband. I have no quarrel with large families. I have no quarrel with only’s. I have quarrel with people who ask rude questions that are none of their business. We are asked when are we going to have another. ( we have two) My response is the same as it was when they were asking: When are you going to have a baaaaby? When you pay for coooollege. ---
**Author:** ![Cessandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cessandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cessandra)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-need-your-damn-opinion-on-my-family-size/157175/69 "2003-02-25T04:56:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*Jesus, four kids at 22? I’m sorry but there _is_ something wrong with that. \*\* Last year I married a man with two kids and had a baby with him. Now I’m having another baby. That’s so very odd? ---
**Author:** ![norinew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/eb9ed0/32.png) [@norinew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/norinew)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-need-your-damn-opinion-on-my-family-size/157175/70 "2003-02-25T05:08:03Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by beagledave_ > Because you wouldn’t want her to grow up “alone”. My best response to this would have to be, “no, we certainly wouldn’t want her to grow up **alone**. That’s why her mother an I choose to live with her?” As to the OP, a friend of hubby’s is always asking me when I’m gonna have another one (I’m 41 and have 3 already, thanks), and last time he asked, I said “never!” He said, “well, that’s up to God, isn’t it?” to which I replied, “Well, yes, but it’s amazing how much less frequently God decides to send babies to women who use reliable birth control”. I don’t think he’ll stop asking, but from now on, I’ll probably just ignore him. My oldest daughter (15) says she never wants kids. She asked me if that’s wrong. I said no, what’s wrong is to not want them and have them anyway! ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-need-your-damn-opinion-on-my-family-size/157175/71 "2003-02-25T05:12:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cessandra \* > \*\*Last year I married a man with two kids and had a baby with him. Now I’m having another baby. That’s so very odd? \*\* If by “odd” you mean “wrong,” then no. If by “odd” you mean “rather unusual,” i would have to say yes. I don’t have statistics to hand, but i imagine the percentage of 22 year old women looking after four children is rather small. ---
**Author:** ![Cessandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cessandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cessandra)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-need-your-damn-opinion-on-my-family-size/157175/72 "2003-02-25T05:33:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mhendo \* > \*\*If by “odd” you mean “wrong,” then no. > > If by “odd” you mean “rather unusual,” i would have to say yes. I don’t have statistics to hand, but i imagine the percentage of 22 year old women looking after four children is rather small. \*\* Eh, you’re right, poor choice of words. Although, I almost do wish there were at least a few girls my age in my situation near me. I don’t connect well with my kids’ friends’ parents. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-need-your-damn-opinion-on-my-family-size/157175/73 "2003-02-25T06:16:56Z")
You’re not alone in that, **Cessandra**. My mother, now in her forties, is _only now_ relatively close to the ages of the parents of my 14-year-old brother’s classmates. When I was a wee lad of 5 she was … 30? Maybe? IIRC one or two of the parents in the grades around me had kids her age. [sub]Beat me to the punch re: marrying a guy with kids by a few hours. There I was, skimming posts looking for someone to have already answered it … got down to near the bottom of the page. Think “YAY! I get to answer this incredibly stupid comment!” Then I see your post. 😛 Way to take all the fun out of it.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-need-your-damn-opinion-on-my-family-size/157175/74 "2003-02-25T06:20:40Z")
I didn’t always either **Cessandra** and I had my last one at 27. There was a working mom/day care/Saturday playdate crowd that I wasn’t a part of, and then the others seemed to be older, more ‘settled’ or something…there aren’t a whole lot of other SAHMs around here to begin with. Going online was helpful for sanity purposes. 🙂 Having two kids is not enough to avoid comments, since mine are both girls. “Are you going to try for a boy?” they ask. ---
**Author:** ![Catamount](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/catamount/32/2840_2.png) [@Catamount](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catamount)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-need-your-damn-opinion-on-my-family-size/157175/75 "2003-02-25T12:37:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tee \* > \*\*Having two kids is not enough to avoid comments, since mine are both girls. “Are you going to try for a boy?” they ask. \*\* I have a good comeback to that one: “No, I think there are enough boys out there so we don’t have to provide husbands for our daughters ourselves.” (This comeback provided by the youngest of three girls. Everyone felt obliged to inform my mother that me and my second-oldest sister were going to be boys because she already had one/two girls. Boy were they surprised.) ---
**Author:** ![auRa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@auRa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/auRa)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-need-your-damn-opinion-on-my-family-size/157175/76 "2003-02-25T13:48:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by iampunha \* > **You’re not alone in that, Cessandra. My mother, now in her forties, is _only now_ relatively close to the ages of the parents of my 14-year-old brother’s classmates. When I was a wee lad of 5 she was … 30? Maybe? IIRC one or two of the parents in the grades around me had kids her age.** I’m the eldest of five kids. When I was born, my mother was 25. I had the youngest parents in my class from Kindergarten through 7th grade. I always thought my classmates’ parents were really old. (I remember calling someone’s mother their grandmother by mistake and almost getting punched in the face for it…) My classmates’ parents probably thought my parents were teens. 🙂 Of course, now my mother is 45, and my youngest little brother is 5, so he has the eldest parents in his pre-school class. One of the day care center workers used to think that I was Arvi’s mother because I looked closer to the average age. My mom was not too pleased about being appointed “grandmother”. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-need-your-damn-opinion-on-my-family-size/157175/77 "2003-02-25T14:35:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by autz \* > \*\*Javaman, > > You keep implying that women in the US are having many babies and causing the population to increase. > > The population in the US is greater than 30 years ago, but _that’s not due to too many births!_ > > Women in the US aren’t even at the replacemnt level of births, let alone at the growth level. (see my previous post for cites). \*\* I’ll grant that. But large-scale immigration is causing lots of population growth; I contend that the driving force in much of that immigration is overpopulation in the source countries. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-need-your-damn-opinion-on-my-family-size/157175/78 "2003-02-25T14:50:17Z")
In the old days, women used to have lots of children. For whatever reason, nowadays its much less. My mother married late (36) and my 2 brothers died, so I am an only. Yes, I was spoiled, if you count my mother coming upstairs and lifting me out of bed in junior high so I wouldn’t have to make the effort and her cutting my meat for me. My son is an only (because it would have been too risky to have another with my husband and I didn’t want an out of wedlock child-many years ago I decided I didn’t want any more even if I did (do) marry again.) My son isn’t spoiled, but he does get along well with adults. A woman I used to go to church with started at 18 having children and has 12 now, She’s about 40, I think. She used to have one every year. She doesn’t believe in birth control. I tell people about her and they all say “:She’s crazy!” as if having kids is a bad thing! ---
**Author:** ![culture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/958977/32.png) [@culture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/culture)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-need-your-damn-opinion-on-my-family-size/157175/79 "2003-02-25T15:22:20Z")
Jeeze, It seems that I am “un-cultured” for daring to suggest that OUR kids (that’s mine and yours) might appreciate a world in which our every resource is not taken up struggling for clean water, energy, food and space. I guess the messenger does get the spear. Let’s get the facts straight: Like it our not, with current technology almost all resources are limited. While this may change at some undefined future point, we do not know when of if this will occur. Like it or not, the earth’s population is growing rapidly. While I do not personally know anyone who came from anywhere other than a female human, I have not met everyone in the world. Maybe some of the population growth is from aliens moving to our planet? I never said the population problem was caused solely by large families in America. Obviously, any rational person understands the majority of the problem is large families in developing countries. Like it or not, when the population increases it decreases everyone’s share of the goods. This is self-evident to the rational. I would love to see more than a couple of examples of unlimited resources. I will respond with at least 20 limited resources for every usable unlimited resource you list. My opinions (sorry if the make you uncomfortable): All problems are not driven by overpopulation (and I never said they were), but it is probably the single most significant impact of quality of life on earth. You do not have to be an uber-environmentalist to have say in environmental policy. Or perhaps you would like to expand this idea to all areas of public policy? While I do not desire making large families illegal, I do not understand why we encourage large families with tax subsidies, insurance subsidies and welfare payments linked to family size, and also encourage massive immigration into the US (I believe limited immigration is a good thing). We should be aiming for ZPG. Actually I do realize why growth is occurring; it just makes no sense to me. Certain segments of the population like the current fiscal pyramid scheme, while others are driven by cultural and religious imperatives (I am some people fit into other groups). It would be nice if our brains could move us past greed and culture and religiously imposed norms, but I realize this is beyond much of the earth’s population, and perhaps even beyond a few on this board, although I hope I am wrong. Sorry for the rambling nature of the response. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-need-your-damn-opinion-on-my-family-size/157175/80 "2003-02-25T16:48:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by culture \* > \*\*Let’s get the facts straight: > > Like it our not, with current technology almost all resources are limited. While this may change at some undefined future point, we do not know when of if this will occur. > > \*\* Yes, let’s get the facts straight. If resources were becoming scarcer, they would be going up in price. For basic commodities, this is simply not happening, either because we are not running out, or because we are using what we have more efficiently. Please show me a basic commodity that is becoming much more expensive, and I’ll buy into your scarcity model for that commodity only. Yes, I am asking for a cite. You are making a basic mistake in assuming static technology. The fact is that resource scarcity and expense will drive technology change, since these advances can be marketed easily. P.J. O’Rourke pointed out that the population density of “hopelessly overcrowded” Bangladesh was the same as that of my home state of Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania has billions of dollars worth of agricultural exports annually, millions of acres of national forest, and abundant wildlife fueling a culture of hunting, fishing and outdoor activity. The first day of deer season was, and is, a school holiday. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-need-your-damn-opinion-on-my-family-size/157175.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-need-your-damn-opinion-on-my-family-size/157175.md?page=5)