# I don't think Hillary can win. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 28, 2015, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-hillary-can-win/716184 "2015-03-28T03:51:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-hillary-can-win/716184/181 "2015-04-07T13:06:29Z")
Since you haven’t read Woodward I doubt you’ll read a long Zengerle article, but he had a good one in the New Yorker about how bad Clinton is as a candidate. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-hillary-can-win/716184/182 "2015-04-07T13:26:51Z")
[quote=“adaher, post:179, topic:716184”] The Republicans didn’t resolve to not cooperate with Obama. QUOTE] [Sure they did.](http://blackhistory.com/cgi-bin/blog.cgi?blog_id=230432&cid) > [@](#): > > As President Barack Obama was celebrating his inauguration at various balls, top Republican lawmakers and strategists were conjuring up ways to submarine his presidency at a private dinner in Washington. > … > > The Republicans had agreed on a way forward: > > Go after Geithner. (And indeed Kyl did, the next day: ‘Would you answer my question rather than dancing around it—please?’) > > Show united and unyielding opposition to the president’s economic policies. (Eight days later, Minority Whip Cantor would hold the House Republicans to a unanimous No against Obama’s economic stimulus plan.) This was on Inauguration Day, mind you. While the new president was celebrating his first day in office, Republicans met in secret to smother his presidency in the crib. I defy anyone to find any instance of Democrats meeting to sabotage a new Republican presidency on its first day. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-hillary-can-win/716184/183 "2015-04-07T13:27:50Z")
Yes, we saw that in both of her disastrous Senate campaigns, didn’t we? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-hillary-can-win/716184/184 "2015-04-07T13:30:14Z")
Things changed when they won Congress. When you’re a minority party with very little power, you use every bit you have to stymie the majority party. Especially since the majority party showed little interest in working with Republicans. Their idea of “compromise” was to insert items into bills that Republicans might want, then tell them to take it or leave it. THe idea that Democrats would tell Republicans what they wanted was insulting and resulted in pretty much zero Republican support for anything they did because they had no input. But things changed when the Republicans won Congress. And if we want to judge an entire party’s outlook by a couple of statements from leaders, what did you make of Obama after both big midterm losses saying he didn’t intend to change? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-hillary-can-win/716184/185 "2015-04-07T13:31:28Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Yes, we saw that in both of her disastrous Senate campaigns, didn’t we? Oh wow. She beat Rick Lazio and um, somebody else you can’t name without looking it up. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-hillary-can-win/716184/186 "2015-04-07T13:31:45Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > There is also fault on Obama’s side, as any non-biased person will tell you. There has never been a more partisan President in terms of constantly attacking the other side. Someone should read Woodward’s The Price of Politics. The Republicans didn’t resolve to not cooperate with Obama. They always had trouble getting their caucus united enough to pass any kind of compromise, but Obama made a point of being unhelpful with insulting public statements whenever things started to look promising. Yeah, never even made an effort to reach out to conservatives. Oh, wait. [Obama Dines With Conservative Columnists](http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/13/obama-dines-with-conservative-columnists/) > [@](#): > > President-elect Barack Obama spent Tuesday evening at a dinner party with several prominent conservative columnists, including William Kristol and David Brooks of The New York Times, according to an Obama transition pool report. > > Mr. Obama, who has been staying at the Hay-Adams Hotel in advance of his inauguration next week, arrived at 9 Grafton Street, an upscale address in Chevy Chase, Md., at 6:34 p.m. The Montgomery County property tax records list this address as the home of the conservative Washington Post columnist George Will, the host of the dinner party. Also attending the party was Charles Krauthammer The Washington Post. Together, some of the columnists at the dinner party have been some of Mr. Obama’s severest critics. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-hillary-can-win/716184/187 "2015-04-07T13:33:49Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > When you’re a minority party with very little power, you use every bit you have to stymie the majority party. No, oppositionism for the sake of opposition is a recent development in US history, dating back to Gingrich but really no further. > [@](#): > > THe idea that Democrats would tell Republicans what they wanted was insulting and resulted in pretty much zero Republican support for anything they did because they had no input. Republican “input” being no more than “Go fuck yourselves”, that approach was the only one a party of adults could take, wasn’t it? > [@](#): > > But things changed when the Republicans won Congress. Yes, they now have responsibility for governance, and can no longer simply oppose. It hasn’t been pretty, has it? > [@](#): > > what did you make of Obama after both big midterm losses saying he didn’t intend to change? That’s the consequence of being elected by We the People, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-hillary-can-win/716184/188 "2015-04-07T13:34:57Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Oh wow. She beat Rick Lazio and um, somebody else you can’t name without looking it up. IOW the best the Republicans could come up with in one of the largest states. In short, your claim is contrafactual. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-hillary-can-win/716184/189 "2015-04-07T13:40:00Z")
No, I simply point out that she hasn’t beaten anyone. She lost her one competitive race. And she didn’t exactly cover herself in glory. But I’ll give her credit for being smart. A lot of activists on Kos and such said she was burning her bridges with the base with her campaign tactics against Obama, but liberals have short memories. Seems like most Dopers don’t even remember it, literally. I expected forgiveness. After all, who else do you have since you’re not willing to do research on candidates who aren’t nationally famous? But to actually forget that awful Clinton campaign? That’s just bizarre. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-hillary-can-win/716184/190 "2015-04-07T13:42:19Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > She lost her one competitive race. Gee, _why_ weren’t the others competitive, hmm? 🙂 You can stop digging any time. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-hillary-can-win/716184/191 "2015-04-07T13:46:14Z")
The better question to ask is why she chose New York? Why not Arkansas? Scott Walker’s just a BIT more seasoned as a campaigner than her. He’s won against real competition in a somewhat unfriendly environment. She cherry-picked a race to get her into elected politics. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-hillary-can-win/716184/192 "2015-04-07T14:37:47Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The better question to ask is why she chose New York? If she can make it there, she can make it anywhere … Seriously. > [@](#): > > Scott Walker’s just a BIT more seasoned as a campaigner than her. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-hillary-can-win/716184/193 "2015-04-07T14:40:49Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > There is also fault on Obama’s side, as any non-biased person will tell you. Fault for many things, sure. But name a single time that Republicans were willing to compromise reasonably and Obama refused. > [@](#): > > There has never been a more partisan President in terms of constantly attacking the other side. Ridiculous hyperbole. > [@](#): > > Someone should read Woodward’s The Price of Politics. The Republicans didn’t resolve to not cooperate with Obama. Woodward is wrong if he says this. Extremely early on the Republicans resolved to oppose Obama on nearly everything – and Republican leaders did nothing to dissuade their less rational party members and candidates that Obama was not evil, anti-American, and a supporter of terrorists. > [@](#): > > They always had trouble getting their caucus united enough to pass any kind of compromise, but Obama made a point of being unhelpful with insulting public statements whenever things started to look promising. Bullshit. > [@adaher](#): > > A lot of activists on Kos and such said she was burning her bridges with the base with her campaign tactics against Obama, but liberals have short memories. God you’re deluded whenever you talk about liberals. Plenty of liberals are very, very anti-Hillary. Do you ever read Kos? > [@](#): > > After all, who else do you have since you’re not willing to do research on candidates who aren’t nationally famous? Where do you get nonsense like this? I’ll make this hint again – _stop generalizing about liberals, or liberal Dopers_. Just stop trying to tell us what we think, what we want, or how we want it. You’re always wrong about it. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-hillary-can-win/716184/194 "2015-04-07T15:14:10Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Fault for many things, sure. But name a single time that Republicans were willing to compromise reasonably and Obama refused. That depends on what you mean as refusal. Sure, doing what Ted Cruz does is not very subtle. Making insulting statements during negotiations or changing the terms of a deal at the last second is a more sophisticated way to refuse compromise. In Woodward’s telling, but not just his, they had a deal and the President wanted more revenue at the last minute. Which caused the Republicans to walk out. When you have a deal and then you’re told you don’t have a deal, that’s a pretty reasonable time to just walk away. It’s a breach of trust. > [@](#): > > Woodward is wrong if he says this. Extremely early on the Republicans resolved to oppose Obama on nearly everything – and Republican leaders did nothing to dissuade their less rational party members and candidates that Obama was not evil, anti-American, and a supporter of terrorists. There was a change after the GOP won the HOuse though. When you control a chamber of Congress, you have a chance to actually do things, and they wanted to do things. And the book also chronicles how even before that, they were open to working on some issues but were totally shut out. The Democrats made concessions, sure, but there was no negotiation over those concessions and Republicans weren’t allowed to say what concessions they actually wanted. > [@](#): > > God you’re deluded whenever you talk about liberals. Plenty of liberals are very, very anti-Hillary. Do you ever read Kos? > Where do you get nonsense like this? I’ll make this hint again – _stop generalizing about liberals, or liberal Dopers_. Just stop trying to tell us what we think, what we want, or how we want it. You’re always wrong about it. I’m right about some liberals, by definition. Yes, some liberals are anti-Hillary. And some disagree with a lot of what she stands for but see no other options even though other options are available. If only they would learn about those other options and get behind them. Believe it or not, I get very few talking points from Hannity or Halperin. I get them from liberal writers. Such as this article about how progressives are focusing all their energies on someone who isn’t even running: > **[Could Warren-mania hurt progressive Democrats? | CNN Politics](https://www.cnn.com/2015/03/25/politics/elizabeth-warren-elections-2016-hillary-clinton/index.html)** > > Democratic candidates likely to oppose Hillary Clinton have a shortcoming for progressives who otherwise agree with them: They’re not Elizabeth Warren. > [@](#): > > Their polite refusal to back another Democrat, at least for the time being, underscores the unusual cult of personality that has developed around Warren, who in just a few years has transformed herself from a Harvard law professor into a political icon and leader of the Senate’s liberal wing. > EXPAND IMAGE > > But it also raises tough questions about how relevant progressive activists will be in 2016. Will their Warren-mania crowd out other potential Clinton challengers, who could benefit from their energized organizing efforts in the face of overwhelming establishment support for Clinton? If Warren truly means it when she says she won’t run for president, will activists transfer their support elsewhere? And if they do, will that happen too late to make a difference? > > For now, the Draft Warren campaign is moving ahead with full force – and, so far, without much impact. The first-term Democrat and one-time overseer of the Troubled Asset Relief Program bank bailout has stressed dozens of times that she will not run in 2016. > > “As Sen. Warren has said many times, she is not running for president and doesn’t support the draft efforts,” Warren press secretary Lacey Rose told CNN. > > “She’s been saying that she’s not going to run, and I take her at her word on that,” said Carol Fowler, the former chair of the South Carolina Democratic Party and a Clinton supporter. “Surely, eventually, her fondest fans will take her at her word and will begin to look around.” > > But so far, Warren’s supporters only have eyes for her. And this is why I keep saying that liberals get focused too much on celebrity candidates. Because enough of them do that a non-celebrity has trouble generating any enthusiasm. The 2008 race was when this got started. It had some of the most qualified Democrats to ever run for President and who did activists focus their love on? The three junior Senators in the race. So yeah, I apologize to the dozens and dozens of O’Malley fans here. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-hillary-can-win/716184/195 "2015-04-07T15:21:21Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Yeah, never even made an effort to reach out to conservatives. > > Oh, wait. > > [Obama Dines With Conservative Columnists](http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/13/obama-dines-with-conservative-columnists/) Not to mention inviting Rick Fucking Warren to speak at his inauguration. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-hillary-can-win/716184/196 "2015-04-07T15:33:06Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > And this is why I keep saying that liberals get focused too much on celebrity candidates. A Harvard law professor is a celebrity? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-hillary-can-win/716184/197 "2015-04-07T15:41:06Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > A Harvard law professor is a celebrity? He’s famous now, so that makes him a celebrity then under the principle of _post hoc ergo propter hoc ergo argumentam ex posteriori_. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-hillary-can-win/716184/198 "2015-04-07T15:41:45Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > A Harvard law professor is a celebrity? I write “jsgoddess Warren” ('cause gay marriage makes that possible!) on all my notebooks, with a big heart around it. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-hillary-can-win/716184/199 "2015-04-07T15:49:41Z")
Saying Hillary can’t win is like saying a particular sports team can’t win the championship. It all depends: How good are their opponents? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-hillary-can-win/716184/200 "2015-04-07T15:54:55Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Saying Hillary can’t win is like saying a particular sports team can’t win the championship. It all depends: How good are their opponents? Exactly. It isn’t going to be Hillary vs a theoretical un-Hillary, it’s going to be Hillary vs Jeb. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-hillary-can-win/716184.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-hillary-can-win/716184.md?page=11)