# I don't think Vegetarian means what you think it means! **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 1, 2013, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-vegetarian-means-what-you-think-it-means/651697 "2013-03-01T03:56:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Dogzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@Dogzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogzilla)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-vegetarian-means-what-you-think-it-means/651697/61 "2013-03-01T19:21:56Z")
> [@dexter](#): > > Next you’ll try to tell me that baby oil isn’t made from babies! News Flash: Girl Scout cookies are not made from Girl Scouts. Nor is hummingbird cake made from hummingbirds. There, there. I’ll hold you quietly while you sob. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-vegetarian-means-what-you-think-it-means/651697/62 "2013-03-01T19:41:03Z")
> [@Dogzilla](#): > > News Flash: Girl Scout cookies are not made from Girl Scouts. > > Nor is hummingbird cake made from hummingbirds. > > There, there. I’ll hold you quietly while you sob. Hummingbird cake? I’m going to have to look that up… ---
**Author:** ![Dogzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@Dogzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogzilla)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-vegetarian-means-what-you-think-it-means/651697/63 "2013-03-01T19:45:01Z")
[Freaking delicious, is what that is.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hummingbird_cake) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-vegetarian-means-what-you-think-it-means/651697/64 "2013-03-01T19:47:15Z")
> [@Dogzilla](#): > > [Freaking delicious, is what that is.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hummingbird_cake) I wasn’t kidding when I said I was going to look that up. I really did. That does look like one fine cake. I’m not much of a sweets person, but once or twice a year, I like to bake up something, and that looks like a prime candidate for the next time I find reason to bake. ETA: I find that fascinating that the cake has been a Southern tradition since the mid-19th century, but it wasn’t until 1978 that an actual recipe was published. That just blows my mind if it is indeed true. ---
**Author:** ![Dogzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@Dogzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogzilla)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-vegetarian-means-what-you-think-it-means/651697/65 "2013-03-01T19:55:02Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I wasn’t kidding when I said I was going to look that up. I really did. That does look like one fine cake. I’m not much of a sweets person, but once or twice a year, I like to bake up something, and that looks like a prime candidate for the next time I find reason to bake. > > ETA: I find that fascinating that the cake has been a Southern tradition since the mid-19th century, but it wasn’t until 1978 that an actual recipe was published. That just blows my mind if it is indeed true. Well, you may be pleased to know that you won’t be needing any hummingbirds to make the cake. Durn critters are tough to catch! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![dexter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dc4da7/32.png) [@dexter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dexter)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-vegetarian-means-what-you-think-it-means/651697/66 "2013-03-01T19:58:50Z")
> [@Dogzilla](#): > > News Flash: Girl Scout cookies are not made from Girl Scouts. > > Nor is hummingbird cake made from hummingbirds. > > There, there. I’ll hold you quietly while you sob. As long as we don’t have to talk about why I was kicked out of the Cub Scouts…☹ ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-vegetarian-means-what-you-think-it-means/651697/67 "2013-03-01T20:02:34Z")
I’ve eaten vegetarian haggis. It’s made from oatmeal, and every bit as repulsive as the real thing. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-vegetarian-means-what-you-think-it-means/651697/68 "2013-03-01T20:06:57Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Yes, usually it means ovo-lacto vegetarian, but not always. Indian vegetarianism, for instance, _usually_ means lacto-vegetarian, so no eggs. Then there are the occasional few who consider themselves “vegetarian” but eat fish (so, pescatarian). Then there are those who are ovo-lacto who don’t care about stuff like gelatin and rennet, and there are those who do care about those. Then “strict vegetarians” are vegan, but most know well enough to identify as “vegan.” I always play it safe when cooking for a group and simply ask “what kind of vegetarian are you?” Or just default to vegan (although I don’t go to the extent to make sure stuff like my sugar is vegetarian–yes, some/a lot of it is refined with bone char made from animals. I don’t expect any vegan to expect me to know all that, though, or cater to that level of ethical strictness. Plus I don’t actually know people who are at that fine a level of veganism.) Blah blah blah cakes. It’s stuff like this that leads to misconceptions like **shijinn** ’s. The fact that there are many different types of vegetarians does not change the basic definition of “vegetarian.” And when a person can’t even get the basic definition straight, throwing all this stuff about rennet and bone char at them just makes things worse. p.s. a person who eats fish is in no way a vegetarian. > [@silenus](#): > > Well of course you would think so, wouldn’t you? 😛 Well played, sir! p.p.s. IANAV ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-vegetarian-means-what-you-think-it-means/651697/69 "2013-03-01T20:15:01Z")
> [@Green\_Bean](#): > > Blah blah blah cakes. Blah blah blah yourself. That’s why I ask what “vegetarian” means, because it’s not as clear-cut as you think. ---
**Author:** ![Dogzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@Dogzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogzilla)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-vegetarian-means-what-you-think-it-means/651697/70 "2013-03-01T20:15:01Z")
> [@dexter](#): > > As long as we don’t have to talk about why I was kicked out of the Cub Scouts…☹ Speaking of which, how many Boy Scouts does it take to make one tin of Boy Scout popcorn? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-vegetarian-means-what-you-think-it-means/651697/71 "2013-03-01T20:27:52Z")
For example, from [Merriam-Webster](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vegetarianism): > [@](#): > > Theory or practice of eating only plants. The vegetarian diet includes grains, vegetables, fruits, and nuts; it excludes meat, poultry, and fish, but some vegetarians eat dairy products (lactovegetarians), egg products (ovovegetarians), or both (ovolactovegetarians). Those who eat no animal products (including honey) are called vegans. This is why I ask. “Vegetarian” seems to generally describes ovo-lacto vegetarianism, but not always. It’s all over the map. ---
**Author:** ![dexter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dc4da7/32.png) [@dexter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dexter)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-vegetarian-means-what-you-think-it-means/651697/72 "2013-03-01T20:31:58Z")
> [@Dogzilla](#): > > Speaking of which, how many Boy Scouts does it take to make one tin of Boy Scout popcorn? Caramel or Cheddar? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-vegetarian-means-what-you-think-it-means/651697/73 "2013-03-01T20:35:01Z")
Cheddar? I never _even kissed_ her! ---
**Author:** ![Dogzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@Dogzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogzilla)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-vegetarian-means-what-you-think-it-means/651697/74 "2013-03-01T20:36:07Z")
> [@dexter](#): > > Caramel or Cheddar? Both. ---
**Author:** ![ZebraShaSha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/eada6e/32.png) [@ZebraShaSha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZebraShaSha)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-vegetarian-means-what-you-think-it-means/651697/75 "2013-03-01T20:40:08Z")
The thing is, meat eating is so culturally ingrained that we are unable - even as vegetarians, vegans, etc - to reframe our dieting choices in any other way to make sense to anyone that isn’t. So seitan becomes “mock duck”, TVP becomes “ground beef”, etc. And it’s unfortunate, because it implies that we still crave meat some how, but eat poor substitutes out of some ideological concern. But I know for myself, as a vegan, and all of my other vegetarian or vegan friends, that none of us crave meat, none of use are wishing we had meat, and any language we use - BBQ ribs, fried chicken, etc - is only out of convenience. This is about to get tricky, but stick with me. As a (damn good) chef, I think meat has a lot of wonderful properties - great texture, great mouth feel, browns easily, doesn’t turn to mush, accepts a variety of flavors well, etc. And nothing else has all of these properties in one big lump, so meat is very convenient to cook with. You could rub a chicken breast with BBQ sauce, grill it, and few people would complain. But eating animals disgusts me (it’s a personal thing, I’m not pushing on anyone), so I can’t make BBQ so easily. But does that mean I shouldn’t eat it at all? Depending on the tradition, BBQ is usually a stringy texture that holds flavors well (smokey, sweet, tangy), but also chars on the outside and forms a crust. None of those properties are inherently meat-based. What if I took a stringy plant-based texture, marinated it so it has those flavors, then charred it so it has a crust? Am I trying to eat “fake” meat, or am I trying to “make” BBQ, through deconstruction? Another good one is Mexican chorizo, where the ground up pork is only a flavor vehicle for dried chillies, apple cider vinegar, and spices. So if I substitute a ground up vegetable protein for the pork, am I making “fake chorizo” if it has the same vinegar, chillies, and spices? And this goes for a lot of things. A few days a go I made Greek moussaka for a party and instead of making the traditional vegan version, I used TVP (soy protein) and spiced it similar to lamb, so the sauce was chunkier and chewier. But I wasn’t trying to “fake” the lamb, I was replicating why people like lamb moussaka in the first place - a chewy, chunky mouth feel. With all the spices in the sauce, you don’t ever taste the lamb anyway, so why not go for the plant-protein? It’s not “fake lamb moussaka” it’s “moussaka with soybeans”, but since meet eaters would often turn up their noses at the latter, we tend to describe it as “moussaka… with lamb… but not lamb”. It’s an unfortunate necessity sometimes. Also, everyone eats bread also eats seitan. If you mix flour and water, form a ball, then slowly knead out all the starches you’ll be left with wheat gluten AKA seitan AKA mock duck. Monk’s have been eating it that way for hundreds of years. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-vegetarian-means-what-you-think-it-means/651697/76 "2013-03-01T20:42:03Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Blah blah blah yourself. That’s why I ask what “vegetarian” means, because it’s not as clear-cut as you think. The definition of vegetarian is exactly that clear cut. There are many diets that fall under the umbrella of “vegetarian.” That does not affect the basic meaning of “vegetarian.” ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-vegetarian-means-what-you-think-it-means/651697/77 "2013-03-01T20:48:46Z")
> [@Green\_Bean](#): > > The definition of vegetarian is exactly that clear cut. No, it’s not. Note my cited definition above. The reason I ask is because when I cook for “vegetarians” there is no absolute consensus, hence me asking to be absolutely clear. ---
**Author:** ![dexter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dc4da7/32.png) [@dexter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dexter)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-vegetarian-means-what-you-think-it-means/651697/78 "2013-03-01T20:50:09Z")
> [@Dogzilla](#): > > Both. Ok. I’ll admit I’m turning chicken (in a vegetarian thread?). I keep sensing a Mod sneaking up behind me for Gibbs - like headslap, so I’m running away now… ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-vegetarian-means-what-you-think-it-means/651697/79 "2013-03-01T20:50:16Z")
> [@Dogzilla](#): > > Well, you may be pleased to know that you won’t be needing any hummingbirds to make the cake. Durn critters are tough to catch! 😉 Nope. Put superglue in the feeder. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-vegetarian-means-what-you-think-it-means/651697/80 "2013-03-01T21:11:02Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > No, it’s not. Note my cited definition above. The reason I ask is because when I cook for “vegetarians” there is no absolute consensus, hence me asking to be absolutely clear. You’re conflating two things: A. The definition of vegetarian, and B. What individual people eat and don’t eat. If you’re saying that the word “vegetarian” is too broad to use as a basis for planning a dinner for someone…well, naturally. As I said above, it’s an umbrella term. I ask _anybody_ that I’m cooking for about dietary restrictions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-vegetarian-means-what-you-think-it-means/651697.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-vegetarian-means-what-you-think-it-means/651697.md?page=5)