# I don't think we have to fear Chinese automakers anytime soon
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-we-have-to-fear-chinese-automakers-anytime-soon/419288
**Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
**Created:** [September 15, 2007, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-we-have-to-fear-chinese-automakers-anytime-soon/419288 "2007-09-15T06:11:25Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@SanibelMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanibelMan)
#### Post date: [September 15, 2007, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-we-have-to-fear-chinese-automakers-anytime-soon/419288/1 "2007-09-15T06:11:25Z")
I was browsing some auto sites earlier tonight when I came across [The Zhonghua.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhonghua_%28car%29) A Chinese sedan now available in Europe and in the U.S. sometime soon. It’s no Daewoo-like el-cheapo, either: The folks at Brilliance, makers of the car, expect it to compete with the likes of the Camry and Accord and are pricing it accordingly: $25,000 to $30,000! So what do you get for that kind of money? [All kinds of fun things:](http://www.zhonghuacar.com/english/model/index_a.asp)
> [@](#):
>
> **Member to A Family of Prestige**
> ZhongHua Passenger car, a masterpiece full of inspiration of Mr. Giugiaro, an Italian design master, presents a complete harmony of international vogue and oriental aesthetics. All thrilling without exception are its streamlines, dynamic body, and multi-curved gem-shaped integrated headlights.
Why, that sounds beautiful! How does it drive?
> [@](#):
>
> **Smooth Manipulation**
> The manual 5-shifts transmission brings true fluent and smooth power transmission. As far as the automatic 4-shifts transmission is concerned, INVECS-II, an electrically controlled self-learning system, is able to intelligently adapt to individualized driving habits and different road conditions; With it, everything is in your grasp and unlimited driving pleasure thereupon incurs.
I love it when unlimited driving pleasure incurs upon me. How luxurious is it?
> [@](#):
>
> **Comfortable Space**
> Humanistic seats adjustable in 8 degrees of freedom, fully intelligent electrically-operated A/C, 8 disc CD ROM, and 8 speakers, broad-minded just as you, all these comply with humanism and/or ergonomics, and the extraordinary comfort thus incurred is sublimed spontaneously.
I gotta admit, my Mazda 3 doesn’t spontaneously comfort me in a sublime fashion. And safety?
> [@](#):
>
> **The Highest Level of Security**
> The complete car performance was tested and appraised by MIRA Corp, an international authentification authority in Great Britain, and the conclusions thus arrived are authentic and reliable. Electronic 4-channel ABS, front/rear disc braking systems, double airbags, flat built wide tyre flat built wide tyre —all these details help to form mighty active/inactive safety systems, bringing you safe and carefree.
Well, they might not have been totally honest with that one. (I know, I’m shocked too. It turns out that during a European crash test, it performed only slightly better than a can of RC Cola at not crumpling up and dismembering everything inside. [YouTube video.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvhuFvkX688)
What does [Car and Driver](http://www.caranddriver.com/previews/13310/first-drive-2007-brilliance-bs6.html) have to say about it?
> [@](#):
>
> Trying to remain unbiased by the high price, we jump behind the wheel and right into a sea of shiny, cheap-looking plastic. The steering wheel feels oily, and the column-mounted stalks brittle. The radio looks as though it had been time-warped from 1985. […] But with just 127 horsepower and 144 pound-feet of torque—and get this, it requires premium fuel—forget about stoplight heroics. Brilliance quotes a leisurely 0-to-60-mph time of 12.5 seconds for the 2.4-liter BS6. With the standard 121-hp, 2.0-liter four, the BS6 takes a glacial 13.8 seconds. […] Unfortunately, Brilliance has a huge list of quality issues that overshadow the car’s driving traits. The stereo sounds terrible, with bass that rattles the doors as if someone were banging a basketball against them. That ugly glob of black rubber—otherwise known as the shifter—felt sticky and nasty after about an hour of use. The one-touch power windows didn’t go down with the as-promised one touch. Even the trunk didn’t open smoothly. It took three tugs to get it completely open.
Yeah, I think I’ll stick with the Japanese for now.
---
### Author:  [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)
#### Post date: [September 15, 2007, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-we-have-to-fear-chinese-automakers-anytime-soon/419288/2 "2007-09-15T12:07:42Z")
[QUOTE=SanibelMan]
Yeah, I think I’ll stick with the Japanese for now.
[/QUOTE]
Serious question: What were Japanese cars like 25-30 years ago or Korean cars like until fairly recently? I could see Chinese cars in the US some day, but I expect lots of lousy cars with hilariously bad manuals and the like for years first.
---
### Author:  [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)
#### Post date: [September 15, 2007, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-we-have-to-fear-chinese-automakers-anytime-soon/419288/3 "2007-09-15T12:40:48Z")
You do realise that your Japanese car is made from assembled parts made in China?
---
### Author:  [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)
#### Post date: [September 15, 2007, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-we-have-to-fear-chinese-automakers-anytime-soon/419288/4 "2007-09-15T12:46:27Z")
I stand corrected. Apparently the Mazda M3 is not assembled from parts made in China, it is made in China in Nanjing.
---
### Author:  [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)
#### Post date: [September 15, 2007, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-we-have-to-fear-chinese-automakers-anytime-soon/419288/5 "2007-09-15T13:05:23Z")
1980?
Datsun 280z. Legendary sports car. Light, agile. Bit of a tendency to rust, but what didn’t?
Honda Prelude / Civic. Small. Efficient. Better than the American cars even then. Sipped gas. More reliable than anything on the road.
Toyota Celica, and the first Camry. Looks a lot like an American pony car. Again, already more reliable than anything. Hatchbacks, too.
Ford? My god, was that a horrid Mustang.
Chevy? Citation, anyone?
And my Camry was made in Kentucky, thank you.
---
### Author:  [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)
#### Post date: [September 15, 2007, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-we-have-to-fear-chinese-automakers-anytime-soon/419288/6 "2007-09-15T13:08:18Z")
[QUOTE=don’t ask]
You do realise that your Japanese car is made from assembled parts made in China?
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but did you watch the crash test video? In a frontal impact, the entire front end of the car, including the front half of the passenger box, collapses and crumples up like a pop can, no kidding, with the door springing open and disintegrating, and what looks like the entire chassis being deformed by the impact at 0:32.
Compare and contrast with [this crash test video.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXm_-5RgFm4) At 4:14 watch a 2007 Dodge Caliber in a 40 mph frontal impact **not** collapse and crumple up like a pop can. The passenger box stays intact.
And at 4:45 watch the split screen test with a 2000 Dodge Neon (“Marginal”) with the 2007 Caliber (“Good”). The Neon crumples up just like the Brilliance, only not quite as catastrophically, as the back end doesn’t deform with impact.
American and Japanese cars that are “Made in China” are made to American and Japanese specs. The Brilliance is made to Chinese specs. World of difference.
---
### Author:  [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)
#### Post date: [September 15, 2007, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-we-have-to-fear-chinese-automakers-anytime-soon/419288/7 "2007-09-15T13:13:42Z")
[QUOTE=E-Sabbath]
1980?
[/QUOTE]
I think the total disregard for advances in auto safety, and the total focus on cheap materials and the bottom line, makes it more like 1950.
---
### Author:  [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)
#### Post date: [September 15, 2007, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-we-have-to-fear-chinese-automakers-anytime-soon/419288/8 "2007-09-15T13:14:58Z")
[QUOTE=don’t ask]
I stand corrected. Apparently the Mazda M3 is not assembled from parts made in China, it is made in China in Nanjing.
[/QUOTE]
That’s a little premature. The Nanjing Chang’an Ford Mazda factory is in test production now. Full production won’t start until January.
My job requires me to work with the majority of the foreign OEM’s and their JV’s in China. Without going into detail, everyone is leary of the Chinese. That said, the kwality issues are huge and the liability even bigger. Remember that recent tire issue?
Building a car to global safety specs, tracing the parts, and being able to handle a warranty and recall is currently far beyond the ability of Chinese OEM’s. chrysler may make the first foray into Chinese production by outsouring to Chery a mini-car destined for the US. We shall see.
Of course, I do remember when a Datsun was a tin can and a rubber band…look at Nissan these days.
---
### Author:  [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)
#### Post date: [September 15, 2007, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-we-have-to-fear-chinese-automakers-anytime-soon/419288/9 "2007-09-15T13:49:27Z")
Mazdas for the North American market are not made in China. I don’t think the Chinese government allows foreign automakers to make cars in China for export yet.
Brilliance is BMW’s joint venture partner in China, they assemble BMW 3 and 5 series cars for the Chinese market. SO most of the design cues and manufacturing tech would be from BMW.
> [@](#):
>
> The new sedan division is costing Brilliance USD 500 million. Under a Technical Assistance Agreement with BMW AG, BMW will provide engineering consulting services to the production of the Zhonghua sedan. A team of engineers from BMW was stationed in Shenyang Automotive’s facilities to assist in the start-up of the production processes.
Yeah, expecting it to be competitive with the Camry is a little optimistic - It’s not as if Toyota doesn’t make and sell Camrys in China, so one wonders if they seriously expect Chinese buyers, let alone western ones, to pay the same price for such rubbish.
**China Guy** , what about Haima, the FAW/Mazda JV in Hainan?
---
### Author:  [@SanibelMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanibelMan)
#### Post date: [September 15, 2007, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-we-have-to-fear-chinese-automakers-anytime-soon/419288/10 "2007-09-15T17:55:41Z")
While I laugh now, I realize the Chinese are probably only 5-10 years away from debuting a competitive car in the U.S. market. I remember when my uncle got a Kia Sephia in 1993 and we all laughed at the little tin box. Now look at the Optima and Sedona… no one’s laughing now.
I guess what surprises me is that they’re trying to compete immediately on such a high level. How can they possibly expect to sell such a mediocre car for $20,000? If they were aiming for a price point below the Kias and Hyundais, that would make more sense.
---
### Author:  [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)
#### Post date: [September 15, 2007, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-we-have-to-fear-chinese-automakers-anytime-soon/419288/11 "2007-09-15T21:40:02Z")
[QUOTE=SanibelMan]
I guess what surprises me is that they’re trying to compete immediately on such a high level. How can they possibly expect to sell such a mediocre car for $20,000? If they were aiming for a price point below the Kias and Hyundais, that would make more sense.
[/QUOTE]
Everyone starts somewhere , the Model A was probably overpriced and crudely assembled. And like the Lada and the Niva , its likely going to domestic consumption for their burgeoning middle class.
Declan
---
### Author:  [@freckafree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/freckafree)
#### Post date: [September 15, 2007, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-we-have-to-fear-chinese-automakers-anytime-soon/419288/12 "2007-09-15T22:42:08Z")
Well, they will certainly lose the Christian Right market with all those features that comply with humanism!
---
### Author:  [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)
#### Post date: [September 16, 2007, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-we-have-to-fear-chinese-automakers-anytime-soon/419288/13 "2007-09-16T00:22:36Z")
[QUOTE=Throatwarbler Mangrove]
**China Guy** , what about Haima, the FAW/Mazda JV in Hainan?
[/QUOTE]
haima was never a JV. Haima produced kit cars (CDK) under license from Mazda.
China does export cars. mainly to iran & russia. IIRC shanghai VW exports a couple hundred Polo’s to Austra;ia.
China exports billions of dollars worth of spare parts to the west. could be $10+ billion
s.
Brilliance is the JV partner with BMW. it is Briallince-BMW that makes the BMW 3 (manual) & BMW 5 (almost fully robotic). the factory is spotless. both the 3 &5 are CKD.
Brilliance is an old state owned enterprise and night and day difference with brilliance-BMW
---
### Author:  [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)
#### Post date: [September 16, 2007, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-we-have-to-fear-chinese-automakers-anytime-soon/419288/14 "2007-09-16T00:52:43Z")
> [@](#):
>
> China does export cars. mainly to iran & russia. IIRC shanghai VW exports a couple hundred Polo’s to Austra;ia.
I thought it was the foreign JVs that are not allowed to export? Maybe this is the old Polo from the 1980s and VW has signed over the rights entirely to Shanghai VW?
---
### Author:  [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)
#### Post date: [September 16, 2007, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-we-have-to-fear-chinese-automakers-anytime-soon/419288/15 "2007-09-16T01:04:31Z")
Actually, while crudely assembled, the Model A was _not_ overpriced. Nor was the Model T, which is probably what you’re thinking of. Wasn’t all that crudely assembled, either.
---
### Author:  [@SCSimmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCSimmons)
#### Post date: [September 16, 2007, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-we-have-to-fear-chinese-automakers-anytime-soon/419288/16 "2007-09-16T02:08:36Z")
[QUOTE=asterion]
Serious question: What were Japanese cars like 25-30 years ago or Korean cars like until fairly recently? I could see Chinese cars in the US some day, but I expect lots of lousy cars with hilariously bad manuals and the like for years first.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, but when Japan first invaded our market, they set their prices at discount levels. China is trying the dubious tactic of marketing their piece of trash as a luxury vehicle. I wonder how much money they’ll lose before they realize that’s a poor strategy?
---
### Author:  [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)
#### Post date: [September 16, 2007, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-we-have-to-fear-chinese-automakers-anytime-soon/419288/17 "2007-09-16T02:14:24Z")
Fuck Chinese anything. My personal goal is to go the rest of my life without purchasing a single thing made in China. It will be hard, and require sacrifices, but I’m willing to make the effort. Fuck them and the Middle Kingdom they rode in on.
Just don’t ask me to give up Kung-Pao Chicken. 😃
---
### Author:  [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)
#### Post date: [September 16, 2007, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-we-have-to-fear-chinese-automakers-anytime-soon/419288/18 "2007-09-16T03:19:34Z")
[QUOTE=Duck Duck Goose]
I think the total disregard for advances in auto safety, and the total focus on cheap materials and the bottom line, makes it more like 1950.
[/QUOTE]
I’ll grant you the safety issue, but your average car of 1950 was a _lot_ less shoddily built than your average car of 1980, if only because the 1950 car didn’t contain nearly as much plastic, or flimsy light-gauge sheet metal put in to save weight and drive up the mileage numbers.
---
### Author:  [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)
#### Post date: [September 16, 2007, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-we-have-to-fear-chinese-automakers-anytime-soon/419288/19 "2007-09-16T05:43:35Z")
[QUOTE=E-Sabbath]
1980?
Datsun 280z. Legendary sports car. Light, agile. Bit of a tendency to rust, but what didn’t?
[/QUOTE]
This is probably the first time in recorded history that a 280Z has been described as “light”. Agile only in comparison to a UPS truck, or a Kenworth.
A 240Z was light. A 260 was heavier, a 280 was heavier yet. A 280Z was not a light sports car. It was best described as a heavy battle cruiser.
---
### Author:  [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)
#### Post date: [September 16, 2007, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-we-have-to-fear-chinese-automakers-anytime-soon/419288/20 "2007-09-16T05:56:08Z")
That piece of glass flying by the camera at 1:00 in slo-mo was _awesome_.
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-think-we-have-to-fear-chinese-automakers-anytime-soon/419288.md?page=2)