# I don't understand holocaust denial **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 11, 2017, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-holocaust-denial/781963 "2017-03-11T23:15:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Weisshund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba8739/32.png) [@Weisshund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weisshund)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2017, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-holocaust-denial/781963/341 "2017-04-23T22:48:05Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > While it is amusing to demolish yet another piece of **Chen019** ’s nonsense, no doubt he will continue Gish Galloping more of it. The problem with people like that is, they believe the false reality they have built and wrapped themselves in. They are like the the person whom when caught red handed, when there is not even the slightest shadow of doubt on their side will continued to hold to the line “I did not do it, it was not me” I guess they have so convinced themselves of the lie, they can no longer see reality. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2017, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-holocaust-denial/781963/342 "2017-04-23T23:27:38Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > While it is amusing to demolish yet another piece of **Chen019** ’s nonsense, no doubt he will continue Gish Galloping more of it. That might have just been a 4/20 tribute to his brain-dead führer. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2017, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-holocaust-denial/781963/343 "2017-04-25T09:52:33Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > More of the same bullshit. > How do you expect anyone to take you seriously when you only cite evidence from known Holocaust deniers like [Germar Rudolf](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germar_Rudolf) - a man who was prosecuted and convicted ofr Holocaust denial in Germany and was refused asylum in the US. > > chen019: **What do you hope to achieve with your continued counterfactual holocaust denial efforts?** You can see the logical flaw here right? By definition, someone who argues that claims about the use of gas chambers in WWII are contradicted by evidence, is a “denier”. The thing is, as I’ve explained to you above, I think the “deniers” arguments are more compelling than the “hoaxers” or the “believers”. Which is probably why the “deniers” have to be brutally supressed, attacked and in some countries imprisoned. Rudolf was a chemist at the Max Planck Institute. His research on cyanide levels at Auschwitz basically supported the findings of Lechter & cast doubt claims that gas was used anywhere other than the delousing facilities. BIG MISTAKE. He should have known there was only one acceptable conclusion under the law in Germany. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2017, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-holocaust-denial/781963/344 "2017-04-25T09:59:54Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > The thing is, as I’ve explained to you above, I think the “deniers” arguments are more compelling than the “hoaxers” or the “believers”. Which is ludicrous. You’ve just denied most of the evidence with no reason, such as Himmler’s own words. Anything that doesn’t fit your narrative must be false, no matter the evidence. It’s not about evidence or what’s compelling – it’s about the need to deny the Holocaust. If that weren’t the case, you wouldn’t have presented such a pathetic attempt at a refutation of the recordings of Himmler’s words. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2017, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-holocaust-denial/781963/345 "2017-04-25T13:00:33Z")
Holocaust [Remembrance](http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/24/holocaust-remembrance-day-thousands-at-auschwitz-for-yearly-memorial-event.html) [Day](http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/real-artifacts-save-holocaust-stories-future-47000839). ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2017, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-holocaust-denial/781963/346 "2017-04-25T13:06:34Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > You can see the logical flaw here right? By definition, someone who argues that claims about the use of gas chambers in WWII are contradicted by evidence, is a “denier”. Your “evidence” has been repeatedly debunked, yet you insist that you are correct. When you perpetuate holocaust denial, guess what that makes you? That’s right; a holocaust denier. > [@Chen019](#): > > The thing is, as I’ve explained to you above, I think the “deniers” arguments are more compelling than the “hoaxers” or the “believers”. Which is probably why the “deniers” have to be brutally supressed, attacked and in some countries imprisoned. Reprehensible lies and coy justifications of the worst crimes against humanity in the past 100 years deserve nothing less. > [@Chen019](#): > > Rudolf was a chemist at the Max Planck Institute. His research on cyanide levels at Auschwitz basically supported the findings of Lechter & cast doubt claims that gas was used anywhere other than the delousing facilities. BIG MISTAKE. He should have known there was only one acceptable conclusion under the law in Germany. A falsehood is still a falsehood, no matter who makes the claim, no matter how much you want it to be true. And you’ve still not answered: **What do you hope to achieve with your continued counterfactual holocaust denial efforts?** ---
**Author:** ![JackieLikesVariety](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackielikesvariety/32/296_2.png) [@JackieLikesVariety](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JackieLikesVariety)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2017, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-holocaust-denial/781963/347 "2017-04-25T13:40:03Z")
over the weekend I saw a documentary about the Holocaust that I’d like to share with you - for anyone interested in eyewitness accounts. or, you know, truth. made by the [Tennessee Holocaust Commission](http://www.tennesseeholocaustcommission.org/living_on.php?id=8) (who knew there was one?) it is about those who remember the death camps either as survivors or as liberators. [Living On](https://youtu.be/xwt-uxmobA8) \< youtube link I’m sorry the link keeps taking us to 25 minutes in (it’s an hour long film) but I can’t seem to fix it. so just rewind! the faces and voices of those who were there deserve to be known. they lived it, the least we can do is understand what actually happened. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2017, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-holocaust-denial/781963/348 "2017-04-25T13:55:59Z")
> [@JackieLikesVariety](#): > > over the weekend I saw a documentary about the Holocaust that I’d like to share with you - for anyone interested in eyewitness accounts. or, you know, truth. > > made by the [Tennessee Holocaust Commission](http://www.tennesseeholocaustcommission.org/living_on.php?id=8) (who knew there was one?) it is about those who remember the death camps either as survivors or as liberators. > > [Living On](https://youtu.be/xwt-uxmobA8) \< youtube link > I’m sorry the link keeps taking us to 25 minutes in (it’s an hour long film) but I can’t seem to fix it. so just rewind! > > the faces and voices of those who were there deserve to be known. they lived it, the least we can do is understand what actually happened. It’s a nice thought, **JLV** , but I’m confident that our **Chen019** will not listen to any of it. Even if he did, he would likely denounce their testimony as that of liars, frauds, actors, or lunatics. No Holocaust deniers have _any_ substantial rebuttal to the innumerable eyewitness accounts. I offered my [own](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20063787&postcount=118) eyewitness citation of Auschwitz brutality over a month ago, and neither **Chen019** nor his fellow-travellers acknowledged it, even to offer a denial or refutation. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2017, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-holocaust-denial/781963/349 "2017-04-25T14:32:13Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > It’s a nice thought, **JLV** , but I’m confident that our **Chen019** will not listen to any of it. Even if he did, he would likely denounce their testimony as that of liars, frauds, actors, or lunatics. No Holocaust deniers have _any_ substantial rebuttal to the innumerable eyewitness accounts. I offered my [own](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20063787&postcount=118) eyewitness citation of Auschwitz brutality over a month ago, and neither **Chen019** nor his fellow-travellers acknowledged it, even to offer a denial or refutation. It would be nice if **chen019** , would gather the courage of his convictions and finally admit that he’s an _anti-Semite_ and a _nazi apologist_. Even a frank confession - “Hitler was right!” - would be a refreshing change, instead of this intellectually dishonest masquerade. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2017, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-holocaust-denial/781963/350 "2017-04-25T17:42:33Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > You can see the logical flaw here right? By definition, someone who argues that claims about the use of gas chambers in WWII are contradicted by evidence, is a “denier”. :rolleyes: Nope, the evidence shows that the ones arguing that showed only that they do not know what they are talking about or purposely botched their research. Of course that is also denied too. They are consistent in their denial I can grant that. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2017, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-holocaust-denial/781963/351 "2017-04-25T18:38:04Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > It would be nice if **chen019** , would gather the courage of his convictions and finally admit that he’s an _anti-Semite_ and a _nazi apologist_. Even a frank confession - “Hitler was right!” - would be a refreshing change, instead of this intellectually dishonest masquerade. I’m inclined to agree with you, but I’m not sure if we’re allowed to make personal accusations like that in GD. Now, if this thread was in the Pit… ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2017, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-holocaust-denial/781963/352 "2017-04-25T21:11:38Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > You can see the logical flaw here right? By definition, someone who argues that claims about the use of gas chambers in WWII are contradicted by evidence, is a “denier”. Oh don’t worry yourself chen, it’s not just your continued use of thoroughly debunked nonsense and lies about the death camps while ignoring the colossal mountain of evidence of the Holocaust that makes you a Holocaust denier and a Nazi apologist. There’s still the mass murder of 2 million human beings, 1.3 million Jewish, by the Einsatzgruppen that you continue to ignore, and things like the Jäger Report that you are unable to address. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2017, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-holocaust-denial/781963/353 "2017-04-25T23:55:46Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Oh don’t worry yourself chen, it’s not just your continued use of thoroughly debunked nonsense and lies about the death camps while ignoring the colossal mountain of evidence of the Holocaust that makes you a Holocaust denier and a Nazi apologist. There’s still the mass murder of 2 million human beings, 1.3 million Jewish, by the Einsatzgruppen that you continue to ignore, and things like the Jäger Report that you are unable to address. And as a [news story](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39062221) this week has noted, the Yad Vashem memorial is struggling to account for over a million remaining Jewish names precisely because of the tactics of the Einsatzgruppen (as partially documented by the Jäger Report you’ve mentioned): > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **BBC** > > While Yad Vashem has made great strides in identifying victims from Western and Central Europe - about 95% have now been named - far fewer names have been uncovered in Nazi-occupied areas of Eastern Europe, where about 4.5m Jews were murdered. > > This is because while there was an organised, official process of arrest and deportation further west, in the east whole communities were marched off and massacred without any such formalities. > > An estimated 1.5m Jews alone were shot to death by the Einsatzgruppen (mobile killing squads) in what has become known as the Holocaust by Bullets, after Nazi Germany invaded the Soviet Union in June 1941. > > In Babi Yar, in Ukraine, for instance, of the 33,000 Jews from Kiev and its surroundings who were slaughtered in a ravine in September 1941 in the largest massacre of its kind, about half are yet to be identified. > > Others not murdered by the Einsatzgruppen died, without a trace, from starvation or exhaustion in ghettos and labour camps, or were killed in nearby extermination camps, where they had been herded without any kind of processing. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-holocaust-denial/781963/354 "2017-04-26T10:39:23Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Rudolf was a chemist at the Max Planck Institute. His research on cyanide levels at Auschwitz basically supported the findings of Lechter & cast doubt claims that gas was used anywhere other than the delousing facilities. BIG MISTAKE. He should have known there was only one acceptable conclusion under the law in Germany. Rudolf was a chemist at the Max Planck Institute, true. However, he did not actually examine the gas chambers, relying on the “testimony” of the already discredited Leuchter for his claims. Leuchter has been shown to be a liar on numerous occasions and basing “science” on his misrepresentations was silly. In fact, [Rudolf, himself, has been backing away](http://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/not-the-science/) from his initial claims about the “scientific” evidence against gassing. He has changed his claims from his original > [@](#): > > …you cannot refute chemical or other findings of the exact sciences with eyewitness accounts, and there is no other evidence apart from eyewitness accounts… in earlier works to > [@](#): > > Green’s second prerequisite is that I have to “demonstrate rigorously” “that the kinetics involved with the formation of such pigments dictate that significant quantities should be formed in all of the homicidal gas chambers”. I stated before that this is nearly impossible. Consequently we must conclude that chemistry is not a science with the power to prove or refute human gassings in Auschwitz “rigorously” in his later defenses of his own nonsense. I will not defend the German laws regarding Holocaust denial. However, those laws did not discredit Rudolf’s nonsense; his own bad science and his own attempt to deny his own claims is what has demonstrated that his claims were false. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2017, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-holocaust-denial/781963/355 "2017-05-01T07:31:31Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > It would be nice if **chen019** , would gather the courage of his convictions and finally admit that he’s an _anti-Semite_ and a _nazi apologist_. Even a frank confession - “Hitler was right!” - would be a refreshing change, instead of this intellectually dishonest masquerade. As would coming up with an argument rather than name-calling, which is always a good sign someone can’t defend their position with logic or evidence. Presumably you believe that Buchenwald inmate Professor Paul Rassinier, or medics like Dr Charles Larson, Dr Russell Barton & Dr John E Gordon who inspected camps all think “Hitler was right”. Moronic. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2017, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-holocaust-denial/781963/356 "2017-05-01T09:53:53Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > As would coming up with an argument rather than name-calling, which is always a good sign someone can’t defend their position with logic or evidence. Presumably you believe that Buchenwald inmate Professor Paul Rassinier, or medics like Dr Charles Larson, Dr Russell Barton & Dr John E Gordon who inspected camps all think “Hitler was right”. Moronic. This isn’t even a denial. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2017, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-holocaust-denial/781963/357 "2017-05-01T10:14:19Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > As would coming up with an argument rather than name-calling, which is always a good sign someone can’t defend their position with logic or evidence. Presumably you believe that Buchenwald inmate Professor Paul Rassinier, or medics like Dr Charles Larson, Dr Russell Barton & Dr John E Gordon who inspected camps all think “Hitler was right”. Moronic. So what do you think about the Jews? Do you think Jews have goals at odds with the interests of non Jewish white people? What about non white people? Would you prefer if all non white people left your country? ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2017, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-holocaust-denial/781963/358 "2017-05-01T12:12:35Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Rudolf was a chemist at the Max Planck Institute, true. However, he did not actually examine the gas chambers, relying on the “testimony” of the already discredited Leuchter for his claims. Leuchter has been shown to be a liar on numerous occasions and basing “science” on his misrepresentations was silly. > > In fact, [Rudolf, himself, has been backing away](http://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/not-the-science/) from his initial claims about the “scientific” evidence against gassing. He has changed his claims from his original in earlier works to in his later defenses of his own nonsense. > > I will not defend the German laws regarding Holocaust denial. However, those laws did not discredit Rudolf’s nonsense; his own bad science and his own attempt to deny his own claims is what has demonstrated that his claims were false. Hey tomndebb, I appreciate that you’re focussing on the evidence. However, Rudolf did take samples himself. The areas he sampled are outlined in Table 19 in chapter 5 of his [original report](http://vho.org/GB/Books/trr/8.html). Leuchter obtained 36 wall samples which were analysed by Alpha Analytic Laboratories, in MA. The overall results, along with those from Ball, are set out in table 3 of Rudolf’s article [Some Technical and Chemical Considerations about the ‘Gas Chambers’ of Auschwitz and Birkenau.](http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndgcger.html) One of the most striking results of course, is that these samples show: \*\*1. no significant difference in total cyanide between the control samples (such as washrooms & barracks) and the alleged homicidal gas chambers. 1. There is also the massive difference with the cyanide levels in the delousing areas and both the claimed homicidal gas chambers & the control samples in the washrooms & barracks. \*\* Rudolf’s comment is in the context of his observation earlier in the article that obviously you can’t run experiments with people to test the formation of Iron Blue compounds afterwards. That seems to be a reasonable observation. Rudolf goes on to list a number of reasons why it’s a reasonable interpretation to adopt. I note Rudolf doesn’t mention Majdanek there. To pick up Cole’s point, if Krema 1, 2, and 3 have no blue staining then neither should Majdanek? That article was in 1998. In 2010 [he also outlines](http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndgcger.html) the limits of the chemical method to determine the issue, noting: > [@](#): > > simply because the data we have, especially when coming from ‘eyewitnesses’, are insufficient and imprecise. But our chemical results show at least a high probability that the eyewitness statements about mass gassings are false. Rudolf, here is referring to the the numbers and quantities of cyanide, which he points out keep [getting revised](http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndgcger.html): > [@](#): > > Only a few years ago it was still the norm to speak of daily, even of continual gassings,[167] but the recent, drastic reductions in the numbers of victims, down to at most 630,000,[168] 470,000 to 550,000,[169] or even 356,000 gassing victims,[170] have resulted in the revised assumption of considerably fewer gassings per ‘gas chamber’ - and in fact, some estimates have been reduced to only a few ten-thousand victims per chamber.[171] > > Further, there is a trend, demonstrated above, to reduce noticeably the quantities of hydrogen cyanide allegedly used, contrary to what witnesses claim.[172] > > Taking all these hypothetically, conceivably marginal requirements into consideration, it would be possible to arrive at a point where the duration for which the hydrogen cyanide was in contact with the cool and damp walls of mortuaries 1 of crematoria II and III was in fact so short that even a vague prediction of the results yielded by chemical analyses is no longer possible. > > By this process the historians of the establishment in fact declare the eyewitness statements regarding the number of victims and the execution conditions to be unbelievable, and they ignore the circumstance that crematoria II and III had no holes through which the Zyklon B could have been introduced. But what do most historians care about factual arguments? They evidently have their ironclad opinion, and that’s all there is to it. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2017, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-holocaust-denial/781963/359 "2017-05-01T12:39:51Z")
I can’t tell if your argument is “it didn’t happen” or “it happened, but the number of victims is exaggerated”. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2017, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-holocaust-denial/781963/360 "2017-05-01T12:53:49Z")
Germar Rudolf is currently encouraging his admirers to leave their estates to him when they die. However he’s [cautioning people](http://germarrudolf.com/testament-issues/) not to be specific about why he’s a beneficiary of their last will and testament. Even more hilariously, he reveals on his homepage that he’s a Trekkie.\* \*I always suspected he was a space cadet. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-holocaust-denial/781963.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-dont-understand-holocaust-denial/781963.md?page=19)